#rieslingstudy - Age your Kabinetts!

[David_Bu3ker]

Thanks, David.

So, in your opinion, can one reasonably substitute a 20 yo Kab. for a 30 yo Spat.? Or is there enough difference to merit buying and ageing both?

Up to this point, I’ve not bought Kabinett with the intention of extended cellaring (except for one bottling, in particular, of which I’ve posted many times); seeing all the aged Kabi love here, however, I’m now re-thinking that.

I don’t see them as interchangeable, merely as having similar base states, upon which the wine is built.

Regarding Kabinett, remember that today’s Kabinett is normally what was yesterday’s Spatlese, so the ageability is likely further enhanced.

[Sarah_Kirschbaum]

Sounds like you’re receiving my question in the manner I was hoping it would be received, Sarah. Curious to see what others have to say, too!

To add a bit - I think that spatlese, auslese, kabinett have not only different levels of RS, they have different textures, structures and shapes, if that makes sense. Those elements, in my experience, tend to give the wines unique character beyond simply more or less perceived sweetness.

[Rodrigo_B]

Sounds like you’re receiving my question in the manner I was hoping it would be received, Sarah. Curious to see what others have to say, too!

To add a bit - I think that spatlese, auslese, kabinett have not only different levels of RS, they have different textures, structures and shapes, if that makes sense. Those elements, in my experience, tend to give the wines unique character beyond simply more or less perceived sweetness.

Weight to me is the biggest difference as you move across the pradikats scale as you age them. To me, an auslese just feels feels heavier and bigger on the palate than a spatlese or kabinett, no matter how much you age (or not) any of these, I feel like they always have that fundamental weight/characteristic to each.

[R_Frankel]

I blame many of you but I’ve come around to just buying a lot more Kabinett - some to drink now in their bright intense flush of youth, and some to age. I like both states.

Last year I tasted a few 2017 Kabinetts vs their 2001 counterparts (Fritz Haag, Willi Schaefer and JJ Prüm). Yes they age beautifully, and those 2001s I’d bet will continue to evolve. Sadly I just have one left, have to keep my hands off it for a bit.

[Rodrigo_B]

I blame many of you but I’ve come around to just buying a lot more Kabinett - some to drink now in their bright intense flush of youth, and some to age. I like both states.

Last year I tasted a few 2017 Kabinetts vs their 2001 counterparts (Fritz Haag, Willi Schaefer and JJ Prüm). Yes they age beautifully, and those 2001s I’d bet will continue to evolve. Sadly I just have one left, have to keep my hands off it for a bit.

Brian seems to have found an easy solution

https://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3207092#p3207092

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

Sounds like you’re receiving my question in the manner I was hoping it would be received, Sarah. Curious to see what others have to say, too!

To add a bit - I think that spatlese, auslese, kabinett have not only different levels of RS, they have different textures, structures and shapes, if that makes sense. Those elements, in my experience, tend to give the wines unique character beyond simply more or less perceived sweetness.

That does make sense, Sarah, and is exactly what I was trying to get at.

I frequently read that all sweet Rieslings “dry out” with age, which, in the context of this “age your Kabinetts” thread, got me wondering if there’s even a point to aging Spatlese and Auslese, if all you care about is the “dried out” “final destination.”

[Ron_Slye]

This is a fascinating discussion. Let me ask if this is an apt analogy. Think of a Cab Sauv wine (let’s just do California for ease of discussion) – both a regular bottling and a Reserve. They are both Cab Sauv. Both (lets assume) from the same vineyard. And both have the same winemaker. I would assume that there is unlikely to be a one to one match of those wines at any point in their life. In other words, I would assume that a ten year old regular bottling would not be the same as the Reserve at, say, 30 years.

I am not as knowledgeable about German Riesling, but I think I am right that the same producer approaches how they pick and process a Kabinett differently than a Spatlese, than an Auslese, etc.

Now I guess if the question is how sweet a wine tastes, then maybe there is a time period when an older Auslese is at the same level as a younger Kabinet (?). But my guess is that there will be other attributes/subtleties that will make someone say that the one is better than the other.

Curious whether any of what I say above makes sense. Or even if it makes sense, if it approximates something true and real.

[Rodrigo_B]

This is a fascinating discussion. Let me ask if this is an apt analogy. Think of a Cab Sauv wine (let’s just do California for ease of discussion) – both a regular bottling and a Reserve. They are both Cab Sauv. Both (lets assume) from the same vineyard. And both have the same winemaker. I would assume that there is unlikely to be a one to one match of those wines at any point in their life. In other words, I would assume that a ten year old regular bottling would not be the same as the Reserve at, say, 30 years.

I am not as knowledgeable about German Riesling, but I think I am right that the same producer approaches how they pick and process a Kabinett differently than a Spatlese, than an Auslese, etc.

Now I guess if the question is how sweet a wine tastes, then maybe there is a time period when an older Auslese is at the same level as a younger Kabinet (?). But my guess is that there will be other attributes/subtleties that will make someone say that the one is better than the other.

Curious whether any of what I say above makes sense. Or even if it makes sense, if it approximates something true and real.

In terms of pure perceptible sweetness, you can probably open an aged spatlese or auslese that would taste as “sweet” as a younger kabinett. However that spatlese or auslese is both going to texturally feel different in the mouth, as well as it’ll have developed more tertiary flavours and aromas from ageing. So while they may be perceived as being equally “sweet,” they will both smell, taste and feel like completely different wines.

[David_Bu3ker]

I am not as knowledgeable about German Riesling, but I think I am right that the same producer approaches how they pick and process a Kabinett differently than a Spatlese, than an Auslese, etc.

Now I guess if the question is how sweet a wine tastes, then maybe there is a time period when an older Auslese is at the same level as a younger Kabinet (?). But my guess is that there will be other attributes/subtleties that will make someone say that the one is better than the other.

Curious whether any of what I say above makes sense. Or even if it makes sense, if it approximates something true and real.

The picks are certainly different, and it’s even in the names, as Spatlese speaks to late harvest, and Auslese speaks to selected harvest. It’s not always done that way, but the intent is there. Beyond that the wines are often “processed” the same way, but there ends up with a different end point in terms of residual sugar. Of course even within the expected levels for the three types there is wild variance between producers, and vintages and/or vineyards for the same producer.

In general a Spatlese starts out as a riper wine than a Kabinett, and an Auslese is riper still. This leads to different flavor expressions, as well as textures, and those things, apart from sugars, are what keep the wines from completely converging over time. Throw in a little botrytis with an Auslese or even a Spatlese, and the differences become even more pronounced.

[Andy_Sc]

I’ll jump at a chance of asking the Rieslings experts in this discussion. What is the difference between a Kabinett and Grosses Gewächs? Definition-wise but especially in terms ageing/development and ageability.

[David_Bu3ker]

I’ll jump at a chance of asking the Rieslings experts in this discussion. What is the difference between a Kabinett and Grosses Gewächs? Definition-wise but especially in terms ageing/development and ageability.

OK, I’ll jump in to start it.

Kabinett and Grosses Gewachs are very different things. Kabinett is generally a wine with some degree of sweetness, though if the bottle also says trocken (dry), halbtrocken (off-dry) or feinherb (nebulous, but more in the off-dry genre) then it won’t be particularly sweet. Grosses Gewachs (GG) is intended to be a dry wine, and also with a higher degree of ripeness than would be typical for Kabinett. That being said, GG can have some residual sugar, but is intended to taste dry. Some folks find that GG wines still seem sweet to them, while many others do not. Given the acidity in most German Riesling, a little residual sugar isn’t a big deal.

Confused yet?

GG is required to be at least spatlese ripeness, and so when it ferments dry you will see wines with 12-14% alcohol. Kabinett typically runs in the 8-9% alcohol range (pre climate change impacts there were plenty below 8%), though trocken examples can be in the 11-12% range. This is of course generalization, and exceptions abound.

As for aging, Kabinett has been discussed in some detail above. GG wines are still a bit of an unknown, as they did not specifically exist before this century. People were making dry wines, but not specifically with the GG imprint. That being said, there is no reason that a good GG won’t age gracefully for years and years. Not too many months ago I opened a 2001 Donnhoff Felsenberg Spatlese Trocken (essentially what became a GG a few years later), and it was in the prime of life, and drop-dead gorgeous. It had loads of life left at nearly 20 years past the vintage. Dry German Riesling from the 1990s still provides great pleasure if you pick the right wines. The level of dry Riesling produced in Germany has risen so much in the last 10-15 years that it’s really a much bigger field of fine wines to choose from.

There’s tons more to say, but that’s all I have time to type right now.

[LoriMcLaughlin]

I have way too much Spatlese and Auslese relative to my Kabinett holdings, and it’s the Kabinetts that I find myself reaching for.

Ditto - reaching more for Kabinett, trocken, or Feinherb.

[Robert_Panzer]

I luckily have and continue to plan for Kabinett centric ageing, regularly bringing in Magnums of Kabinett more than any other pradikat level. I went gonzo big on the ‘19 Richter range, as he made an outstanding range, once again. I find the charm, versatility and appetizing qualities of Kabinett to be a sweet spot for me (no pun intended).
I also adore Feinherb wines, a particularly versatile netherworld between dry and off dry that deserves far more consumer love. Part of the problem is just the unfamiliarity among consumers, which is part of the whole discourse of German wines’ marketing challenges.

[Brian_S_t_o_t_t_e_r]

I luckily have and continue to plan for Kabinett centric ageing, regularly bringing in Magnums of Kabinett more than any other pradikat level. I went gonzo big on the ‘19 Richter range, as he made an outstanding range, once again. I find the charm, versatility and appetizing qualities of Kabinett to be a sweet spot for me (no pun intended).
I also adore Feinherb wines, a particularly versatile netherworld between dry and off dry that deserves far more consumer love. Part of the problem is just the unfamiliarity among consumers, which is part of the whole discourse of German wines’ marketing challenges.

Have you now tried the 2019 Richter wines since they’ve arrived? Eagerly awaiting my 3 cases

[David_Bu3ker]

I luckily have and continue to plan for Kabinett centric ageing, regularly bringing in Magnums of Kabinett more than any other pradikat level. I went gonzo big on the ‘19 Richter range, as he made an outstanding range, once again. I find the charm, versatility and appetizing qualities of Kabinett to be a sweet spot for me (no pun intended).
I also adore Feinherb wines, a particularly versatile netherworld between dry and off dry that deserves far more consumer love. Part of the problem is just the unfamiliarity among consumers, which is part of the whole discourse of German wines’ marketing challenges.

Have you now tried the 2019 Richter wines since they’ve arrived? Eagerly awaiting my 3 cases

Well at least someone ordered more than I did.

[Brian_S_t_o_t_t_e_r]

I luckily have and continue to plan for Kabinett centric ageing, regularly bringing in Magnums of Kabinett more than any other pradikat level. I went gonzo big on the ‘19 Richter range, as he made an outstanding range, once again. I find the charm, versatility and appetizing qualities of Kabinett to be a sweet spot for me (no pun intended).
I also adore Feinherb wines, a particularly versatile netherworld between dry and off dry that deserves far more consumer love. Part of the problem is just the unfamiliarity among consumers, which is part of the whole discourse of German wines’ marketing challenges.

Have you now tried the 2019 Richter wines since they’ve arrived? Eagerly awaiting my 3 cases

Well at least someone ordered more than I did.

Can’t tell if I’m more excited to try the wines, or to cull my pending list by 20% once they arrive

[David_Bu3ker]

I went a little nutty. Besides a case of mixed Richter Kabinetts, I ordered 18 different bottles, to taste through the range. Most of those will be opened in the next several months.

[Brian_S_t_o_t_t_e_r]

I sense a zoom tasting is in order

[Robert_Dentice]

I luckily have and continue to plan for Kabinett centric ageing, regularly bringing in Magnums of Kabinett more than any other pradikat level. I went gonzo big on the ‘19 Richter range, as he made an outstanding range, once again. I find the charm, versatility and appetizing qualities of Kabinett to be a sweet spot for me (no pun intended).
I also adore Feinherb wines, a particularly versatile netherworld between dry and off dry that deserves far more consumer love. Part of the problem is just the unfamiliarity among consumers, which is part of the whole discourse of German wines’ marketing challenges.

You are doing the Lord’s work!

[Andy_Sc]

I’ll jump at a chance of asking the Rieslings experts in this discussion. What is the difference between a Kabinett and Grosses Gewächs? Definition-wise but especially in terms ageing/development and ageability.

OK, I’ll jump in to start it.

Many thanks David, that’s very helpful. I’m a Riesling newby but in the past 5 years bought every year a few bottles stash away those few exciting Rieslings I had, where with some age (10 to 25y). I always thought that GG is the best dry Riesling you could get out there and accordingly I focused on GGs (Dönnhoff, Keller, Schäfer Fröhlich, Kühn, Wittmann). Learning here that Kabinett have lower alcohol levels is very intriguing. I have to look into that and try some soon.

I think we all should be happy that the Germans are so crappy in marketing these wines with all their confusing levels. Otherwise the prices would be higher for the top wines.