2010 Pavie! I didn’t think it even hit 50.
So far this thread is pretty tame, but inevitably these kinds of threads often devolve into more bashing. And I suspect most producers look at this and think “please, please, don’t let there be a thread about me”. Maybe I’m wrong, and any kind of PR is a net positive. But given how many producers don’t participate, and will tell you flat out they won’t participate, I don’t think I’m wrong. I know a lot of people here don’t care, some are even happy they have a sandbox to play in where they can say anything they want about producers. I just remember the good ole days pre-Berserkers, when there were literally dozens of producers participating, often some very well known names.
If all they want is happy go lucky life to shill and promote their wines, they can stick to instagram, where people will heap tons of praise on sub par wine as long as it gets them a like/follow. I would never discourage honesty and discourse cause it offends producers if someone doesn’t like their wine. Not sure why you’d advocate this position. We’re hear to learn and form opinions and hopefully be guided into buying wines by fellow board members, honesty is key in that.
It is a respectable point of view, but not one I share. I don’t subscribe to any wine pubs any longer but when I did, I wanted the critic to put me on to wines I’d like to drink. Tasting the dreck would not have helped me at all (unless it was a particularly bad vintage of an otherwise reliable producer.). There is too much wine out there for a civilian to try them all; it would be of little value to me, other than a momentary chuckle, to have a publication devoted in any substantial part to bad reviews. Just my opinion
Charlie, I get that, and I think there are plenty of people here with useful experience to learn from. But we really only have one side of things: the consumer side (and a few ITB retailers, and a tiny number of producers who chime in once in a while).
No one says there can’t be discourse, both positive and negative. We have plenty of that already. All I’m saying is that you can talk to just about any producer, and they will tell you they don’t participate because there really is no upside, it can only go downhill eventually. I don’t want some fantasy world where producers are protected against every complaint and negative comment. And frankly we’re way beyond the point where Berserkers is going to attract producers to participate. But I do miss the old days when there was an opportunity to communicate with literally dozens of well known names. I’m just expressing my opinion, like everyone else.
Maybe you’re right: back in the pre-Bererkers days there was no instagram, facebook was in its infancy. Maybe times have just changed, and there are so many other outlets that producers can control better that they don’t need places like this at all. To me, that’s a loss, because none of those other outlets provides the comprehensive discussion capability that an actual forum does (or maybe I’m just an old dog).
The good ole days? Climb up on my knee young man and let granpa tell you a story…
There are plenty of wines I like that other’s aren’t fans of. And it doesn’t bother me one bit that they don’t heap praise on them. I continue to buy the wines and enjoy them. Groupthink is the worst possible thing that can happen and honest opinions are the one thing that helps keep us on the striaght and narrow…
Alan,
As I stated above, I could not agree more.
There is so much to learn from producers - who, in general, are a lot more open and honest about what they do and why in person than they may be on elsewhere. I think that honesty would translate well, but as Alan astutely points out, the ‘environment’ here can be challenging at times . . .
Cheers
Just because you haven’t seen it, does not mean it does not exist. And although I have seen bad wines criticized and scored well below 88 by both Meadows and Gilman (and some positively trashed by Gilman), there are so many producers in every region (over ? 400 pinot noir producers in Oregon alone, many more than that in California I am sure) that it only makes sense for wine critics to visit the producers who they feel have the best chance to make wines that are good. Their readers are looking for recommended wines to try, and honest reviews of wines from otherwise respected producers that they should avoid…not an article filled with wines 80% of which are crap and criticized as crap. Also, you should note that Meadows, Gilman, and Tanzer all review producers that are not in the top echelon price-wise and reputation-wise, and are adding and noting when new blood elevates a previously mediocre winery to a higher level. No critic as enough time to taste from every producer, and since they are trying to recommend good wines they may tend to stick with producers they know are good. But there are also articles appearing on up and coming producers, producers under the radar, etc. Needless to say, if you don’t get anything out of reading a particular critic or any critic, then don’t. However, I sense that you are enjoying being “controversial” and “stirring the pot” while your experience with any given critic seems to be rather limited judging by your comments, so it is foolish of me to waste time treating your pronouncements as worthy of the effort it has taken to write this.
I have twice tasted through the range of Rhys Pinots. Mixed bag for me, really like his Santa Cruz offerings which are complex and interesting, and the rest of his wines which are not.
Groupthink is what you get when you don’t have people who actually know what they’re talking about contributing ![[wow.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/7/7d450e9830889c8943b674446a21b7254cad657e.gif "wow"){kind=small}
You’re not really addressing my point. I’m not at all interested in some big fan club that simply cheerleads for one winery or the other, that’s not what I’m saying. I don’t know your history, but you’ve only been registered here since 2014. Don’t know if you were on ebob before this, or somewhere else before that. I don’t go back nearly as far as some people do, but I can tell you that in earlier days (for example, when I was on West Coast Wine), there were a couple dozen producers participating, and you could learn all kinds of things about new places, wines, growing, winemaking, events, etc. Later, at the height of ebob, there were probably 100 producers that would pop in, many fairly often, both domestic and international, including some pretty incredible names, contributing some pretty amazing info. Now, you just have me. You tell me which is preferable 
I’ll add a couple other thoughts: I’ve said essentially this same thing about how we drive away producers multiple times over the years. I’m a broken record on the subject, and I recognize that it’s not going to change.
And I actually think this thread, or its more general topic, is kind of interesting. If it hadn’t have been centered directly on Rhys, but left as a more general topic - with encouragement not to bash specific wineries - there is a lot of useful discussion to be had that might benefit newer collectors.
The point I’m trying to make is that you can have plenty of discussion that includes critique of what wineries do, without doing so in a way that drives them away.
“Don’t it always seem to go that you don’t know what you got 'til its gone.”
But if the producers aren’t posting here, who are we driving away?
Several used to post often. Most are gone.
Such as ??? Just curious .
come on now, 100? List me more than 10 producers you cared about that posted frequently on E-Bob.
If you’d prefer we can rule with the draconian fist of Mark Squires so you can have random producers drop in for a few posts. But like I said previously, there are other more efficient avenues to communicate to the general public. Back then E-Bob was the only major place to discuss wine. Now there are huge facebook groups, instagram, twitter, the need for a forum to communicate has decreased significantly.
Well for openers I don’t expect to see Kevin Harvey posting anytime soon. Unless he wants to fess up and admit he is peddling overpriced mediocre California to the masses here.
Ray Walker no longer posts here
I still see producers posting here. I don’t think we’ve scared them off. You just have to look in threads about their wines. That is where I see them most often.
Mic drop.