Charlie Fu wrote:
"Adrian’s whole point is who cares. Why should we care if he puts 92 on all of them. Why should we care if the notes he posted here accurately reflect what he put on CT?
Adrian writes great detailed notes that convey his opinion of the quality of the wine very well." _____________________________________________________________________________
I don’t know Adrian but have read many of his notes. He writes quite well. However, I haver been on this Board quite a while and “sort of " understand his mindset. However, the “inside joke” about points is a bit deceptive to many of the newer Berserkers who may not “get it.” For better or worse, there are many people who do believe” in points and the sarcasm is possibly lost on them. If you dislike points, then leave them out and write what you mean. Putting inflated points in a review simply confuses some people, especially the newer and younger members of this Board. I simply do not find it necessary.
$49 in 2004 would have also bought you a Fourrier Morey St. Denis Clos Solon or a Fourrier village chambolle or G-C. That kind of supports my point about the brand’s “aspirational pricing” from the get go. I know which I’d rather have in my cellar now (caveats about 04 vintage aside). As for the prices rising in subsequent years as/because people tasted the wines, well possibly. I have read several accounts on here about consumers buying cases of the stuff and socking it away on faith w/o sampling it. Speaking for myself, I certainly got caught on the wave of hype and shelled out $60 - $70 per bottle w/o tasting it.
I’m sure you’re right about the economics of the business and that they may at best be breaking even now. However, I’m not sure how that should affect me as a wine consumer/buyer. I guess an American wine buyer particularly might be interested in helping subsidize the Rhys experiment/exploration of terroir. Generally though the very US habit of pricing wines high from the beginning of a brand’s inception is something that generally rubs me the wrong way (even as I understand the fundamentally different economics that underpin wine production here as opposed to the ‘old world.’)
I agree (and tried to indicate) that none of us should really care about their costs or subsidize them. We should buy the wines we want and their pricing will work out for them, or not, depending on whether their wines find an audience. As far as $49 for 2004 California Pinot Noir wines, it wasn’t what I would call aspirational. It was slightly more than August West or Loring, around the same as Peay, and less than Littorai, and much less than some other producers.
I can’t fault your preference for that particular Burgundy producer, I like them as well. Note they have also gone up in price as more people discovered them and the demand grew.
Since I’m local, I’ve had much more opportunity to taste their wines (and those from other California producers). I can’t think of one I’d truly call “Burgundian”. Different types of wines. I happen to enjoy both, no doubt because I’ve been drinking both for 30+ years. But, I certainly understand why some folks prefer one or the other.
To me there’s a difference between wine made from plainly ripe fruit and one that has that cherry cough drop candied quality to it. The latter seems very hard to avoid in California pinot. I know the first Rhys I tasted – a 2009, Alpine, I believe – had a bit of that.
The other day I was served a recent vintage Canadian Pinot Noir (Burrowing Owl). It was not objectively bad, but it had the cherry cough drop/candied/artificial fruit character in spades. Compared to a wine like Rhys, the difference was stark. The concept of calling what top producers do in California “candied” makes no sense to me.
Now was that candied element more common in the past in California pinot? Yes it was. Up until about 2005 I found it quite often. Not so much anymore.
I find sweetness from ripe CA fruit, but to characterize it as candied or cherry cough drop candied…I just don’t find this in any of the CA pinots I enjoy.
There are new wineries opening their doors in Burgundy in the last two decades and selling wines from GC and PC sources. Same thing in Piedmont, Cornas, Cote Rotie and other premium old world regions. How are they pricing their wines?
Alpine/Skyline and the other Rhys wines are not sourced from the equivalent of GC nor PC vineyards. They are newly planted sites, as yet untested over the long term in terms of the ageability of the wine they produce. The falseness of the equivalence is precisely my point. They are priced as if they are PC type sites. Perhaps they will turn out to be.
I have a fair amount of $30-40 dollar 1er Santenays and 1er Marsannays in my cellar from newish and established producers. I guess this argument could go both ways though. (That these wines/sites can’t command higher prices precisely because they have been through the test of time and the sites have ultimately been deemed middling…Regardless, I currently find them a better value than Rhys).
Maybe it’s a matter of personal sensitivity, but I find some cough drop even in a lot of cool climate pinots – e.g, the Rhys I mentioned above and some Copains – and I get it in large quantities in virtually every cheaper brand. Sometimes when the wine at first seems to have none of that, I find that it emerges with air. I was impressed when I tasted at Littorai two years ago because their wines seemed entirely free of it.
Katrina, you make good points. What I don’t completely follow is, why necessarily set up for QPR competition Burgundy and California Pinot noir? It seems to me that they represent different enough wine regions that they should exist separately on their own respective merits.
Exactly Jeremy, as I have no idea why some people insist on comparing burgundy to CA Pinot. It is not an apples to apples comparison and it never will be. If one finds better value in Burgundy, then by all means buy and drink those wines.
just for ease of argument, it became a Cali/burgundy QPR face-off. No-one is expecting Cali pinot to approximate burgundy (I’m not, anyway. Maybe I need to say that a bit louder for Russ to hear). But just because Cali pinot is sui generis, that doesn’t mean that QPR doesn’t apply, does it? (And it’s doubtless the case that the backdrop of burgundy pricing forms part of the horizon against which US Pinot makers price their wares, however effectively one makes the argument that the two are different wine regions.)
I would make the same QPR argument about a large number of CA wines. RPM Gamay for example vs any number of beaujolais. Or Massican’s whites vs Italian white varieties. There are pockets of value here, sure. Edmunds St John and Forlorn Hope spring to mind. In general though, the “pedal to the metal” approach to Cali wine pricing rubs me the wrong way.
They cant command the higher prices because they lack the depth and concentration of peers. Stylistic preferences, not withstanding, I find the Rhys meet the criteria in terms of complexity and concentration of at least your average PC.
Thanks, Katrina. I feel like anybody who brings up the pricing of California vs Europe on this board is labled as “someone who doesn’t get it”, or “you can enjoy Both kinds”, etc. ad nauseam. Perhaps I need to shout it: IT IS NOT ABOUT PERCEIVED QUALITY, it is about THE COST. My original point is why pay for a wine which (to me) is a Crozes Hermitage in quality for double the price of a Graillot? Why not simply buy a Cote Rotie for THE SAME DOLLARS? If you have the pocket and you like the wines and prices charged by CA wineries, go for it…I don’t and therefore my irritation. I am not nor was I knocking any Cali wine, just the pricing, which as someone previously pointed out, was on the “ambitious” side.
And on this difference between sweet and candied, I think it’s a matter of semantics. Sure, there is a big difference between cough syrup flavors and sweet, but I think you’ll find candy in all types of wines: Burgundy, Alto Piedmont, especially has a hard candy note to me, but it is not the overwhelming impression I take away. I never really perceive a thick sweetness to Rhys pinots, but more toward the hard candy note that doesn’t interfere in the wine.
IMO, the 2011 Rhys Skyline Syrah was far and away better than any Graillot I have ever had, and I have had a bunch. I need to revisit some of the older Horseshoe Syrahs in my cellar to see where I would place them. It’s been a while - excepting a couple of embryonic new release bottles.
Equivalent quality to a Cote Rotie? Yes. Different from Cote Rotie? Yes.
Don’t get me wrong, I wish the wines were cheaper, and in fact the overall cost of a even a reasonable Rhys order has now passed my breaking point. That being said, the cost of a reasonable order of high quality White Burgundy/Chablis, Red Burgundy or Cote Rotie has also passed my breaking point. I am finally being priced out of my favorite hobby, but it’s not a Rhys-specific issue.
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