Reduction-the new Curse

[D_ZDUNKEWICZ]

Rotten eggs? Burning rubber? I’ve been into wine for about 15 years and I’ve never encountered those smells. TCA is another head scratcher for me. I"ve never smelled wet cardboard in a wine. Brett and oxidation, however, is something I can detect a mile away. Weird.

[gene_keenan]

@John J. Vachon

Loren:

That is the big lie-it doesn’t blow off.

Example Laurent 03 CSD- tried two times-after 3 days it is 95% gone but so is the wine.

John

I agree. It doesn’t really blow off. What I think happens is your threshold drops after the initial opening because it is so strong so after a few hours the wine appears relatively fine relative to how it was after opening. Just a theory: YMMV.

[Peter_Chiu]

I"ve never smelled wet cardboard in a wine

David - you are lucky. Most corked wines smell wet-cardboard.

[Stefan_Blicker]

Funny- I figured out what reduction is for me fairly recently. It is the smell of Cheerios. It is even the wheat-y wheat bran taste/smell of Cheerios. Exactly. For me, anyway. Definitely get it in a lot of young Burg.

[W_Leonard]

@JonoBeagle

Bill indeed,

I can’t say I have anecdotal evidence as all the wines that I taste that are heavily reduced, I rarely get to try a whole case of as many are at various trade tastings, or from barrel.

In reality, there should be some reduction on all young wines, it is for me at least, when the wine is so riddled with it, that you can’t decipher anything that I worry, but a slight eggy note can be found on wines that are not hugely reduced, especially when young. I suppose it depends on the producer as well. If you taste say a young Gouges from barrel samples in London (well there isn’t any point, they are hugely reduced every year) but then every year, the wines come good eventually. howwever, we know that story well. I suppose it is more worrying when a producer who usually doesn’t taste as reduced suddenly tastes hugely reduced that one might sit back and take stock, and wander why…

I can only speak of what I’ve experienced, and many wines show these characteristics to integrate or blow off (the Dog Point example being one).
FWIW, I found a lot more obvious reduction in the 2011 samples of Burgundy than in any of 07/08/09/10, and it did worry me a little bit, and so time will tell as those are all a bit young to be getting too involved with now, but I’d agree that 98s after 5-10 years still showing lots of reduction would worry me…

So what would a reduced wine be a 60-65+?

[W_Leonard]

@W. Leonard

@JonoBeagle

Bill indeed,

I can’t say I have anecdotal evidence as all the wines that I taste that are heavily reduced, I rarely get to try a whole case of as many are at various trade tastings, or from barrel.

In reality, there should be some reduction on all young wines, it is for me at least, when the wine is so riddled with it, that you can’t decipher anything that I worry, but a slight eggy note can be found on wines that are not hugely reduced, especially when young. I suppose it depends on the producer as well. If you taste say a young Gouges from barrel samples in London (well there isn’t any point, they are hugely reduced every year) but then every year, the wines come good eventually. howwever, we know that story well. I suppose it is more worrying when a producer who usually doesn’t taste as reduced suddenly tastes hugely reduced that one might sit back and take stock, and wander why…

I can only speak of what I’ve experienced, and many wines show these characteristics to integrate or blow off (the Dog Point example being one).
FWIW, I found a lot more obvious reduction in the 2011 samples of Burgundy than in any of 07/08/09/10, and it did worry me a little bit, and so time will tell as those are all a bit young to be getting too involved with now, but I’d agree that 98s after 5-10 years still showing lots of reduction would worry me…

So what would a reduced wine be a 60-65+?

Or like 50-59? How do you account for this in your point index? Is it in the appendix

[Oliver_McCrum]

@gene keenan

@John J. Vachon

Loren:

That is the big lie-it doesn’t blow off.

Example Laurent 03 CSD- tried two times-after 3 days it is 95% gone but so is the wine.

John

I agree. It doesn’t really blow off. What I think happens is your threshold drops after the initial opening because it is so strong so after a few hours the wine appears relatively fine relative to how it was after opening. Just a theory: YMMV.

Some blows off, some doesn’t. Let’s not go overboard here. Jamie Goode has some information on this at A few thoughts on reduction – Jamie Goode's wine blog

[John_Morris]

@John J. Vachon

reduction is the new curse.

I guess you don’t drink Northern Rhones.

[Oliver_McCrum]

Good point, hardly new. Wet wool is essentially a terroir note in the Loire, Alsace…

[Robert.Fleming]

@Stefan Blicker

Funny- I figured out what reduction is for me fairly recently. It is the smell of Cheerios. It is even the wheat-y wheat bran taste/smell of Cheerios. Exactly. For me, anyway. Definitely get it in a lot of young Burg.

How did you arrive at your conclusion that the wheaty/Cheerios smell comes from reduction?
None of the sulfur compounds associated with reductive winemaking are reported to have that aromatic profile.

[G_D_y_e_r]

@Oliver McCrum

Some blows off, some doesn’t. Let’s not go overboard here. Jamie Goode has some information on this at A few thoughts on reduction – Jamie Goode's wine blog

Jamie Goode to the rescue: a longer article on reduced sulfur compounds.

There are different types of reduced sulfur compounds, as others have pointed out. Some blow off when oxidation occurs. Others are permanent.

[Ray_Walker]

A few of us in Burgundy are actually quite upset about this trend. It frankly is a terrible flaw, some others even think it a benefit to the wines, potentially aiding in a wine’s aging and maturation. I don’t buy it. As an aside, I don’t buy into many of these other old ‘wisdoms’ that you hear so much of. Why would you wish to wait for a wine to be drinkable? Who knows how much time we’ve anyhow? And what if the cork is faulty? Another crummy traditional relic. The wine should be consumed right after it arrives which is precisely why we will henceforth be bottling in natural aluminum cans with pull tabs. We supply everything but the straw.

[Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow]

I think, Ray, that will be a good solution for many Burg “fans” who post here, judging from the vast majority of posts. Why wait till “it’s/its time”, as the old tv commercial used to say. Isn’t aluminum a bit too longlasting/durable? This is thinking too much “out of the box”? Instead,what about the stuff they use for juice boxes or the milk in the box they seem to like in France? More "inside the box thinking, n’est-ce pas?

[Peter_Chiu]

Thanks for the link - Greg.

[John_Morris]

It seems that people in Southwest England are currently getting first-hand experience in French reduced sulfur compounds – a type of mercaptan in this case.

[Nick_Gangas]

Ray can I get my Chambertin in tall boys this year ? I hear they age better.