The link below to a Lopez de Heredia Tondonia Reserva tasting note encapsulates both the reasons why I like and dislike CellarTracker, simultaneously. The OP rubbed the community the wrong way and it responded in spades within the comments section. I am sure there are plenty of other arguments to be made on reasons to like CT or not, as I have read through other threads on this topic, but this seemed relevant to share.
While there is quite a bit of banter in the comments, it also transformed an otherwise unhelpful tasting note in to an informative dialogue, which is the reason I value and participate in these communities.
IMHO, they donât have profit for flipping as most buy them to drink them. Many of them (LdH a prime example) have late releasing of vintages already baked in to their distribution, so their wines are hitting the market already a lot closer to drinkability. Thereâs no benefit from buying ahead of the game, no speculation for profit. Which is great for consumers, theyâre still very affordable treats for just about everyone to access.
I believe LdH has around 125 hectares of vines in production, which is substantial. Although Lafite to my knowledge also has somewhere north of 100 hectares of vineyard. Although I do not have any idea how much supply LdH has on release versus Lafite or how much each hold back for their cellars. Plus the structure of how each wine is released is entirely different.
It is worth noting though that LdH Gran Reserva is sought after and sells for around $200, which isnât exactly inexpensive.
I am personally a fan and quite happy that it retails in the $40 dollar range. It means I can actually buy it in quantity. Plus it is already aged upon release so I can drink some young and age the rest. It is really a win win.
And taking into account at what prices the wines sold only a small handful of years ago, itâs gouging. Everythingâs relative.
Iâd figure something like 98% of the top wines produced in major wine regions of the world are never in three-figures.
And I guess the writer of the CT note can safely be ignored after seeing him throw around professional terms like âCiranzaâ, âTondonia Grand Reservaâ, âCommando Gâ and âTondonia Riservaâ - or him saying Spanish wines are the vinous equivalent of McDonaldâs burger.
Iâm not sure I agree with the causal direction you are suggesting.
If people started buying them with the intent of flipping for profit, that wouldnât make the price go up and reward flipping. There would need to be rapidly rising actual consumer demand, like there is in Burgundy and Champagne. And I donât see any sign that demand is rising significantly for all but a small handful of Spanish wines.
I think Spanish wine is currently like most wine categories, the pricing is around market and there isnât much speculative or investment activity. And for those who find wines there that represent good value to you for drinking, thatâs great news,
If I misunderstood you, I apologize, and feel free to clarify.
I donât see whatâs to hate about CellarTraker from that tasting note and subsequent discussion. Just wine folks debating about wine (some more polite than others, but thatâs the internet for you). Iâm all for (politely) discussing wines.
Onto the contents of the discussion around Spanish wines and their pricing, Iâm never a big fan of comparing prices of other wines to Burgundy prices. Most other regionâs production tends to be much larger, which skews things significantly.
The poster of the tasting note clearly doesnât seem to be a fan of Spanish wines, which is ok. Not all wines are for everyone, and thatâs ok. Not all wines need to be hundreds of dollars and incredibly sought after and allocated.
A note on pricing for the LdH wines, that I donât think the taster realises: thereâs been a huge surge in demand for them, especially the whites and rose. Prices have begun to rise significantly over the last couple of years. Avg. global W-S price for the Tondonia whites has gone from ~$50 in Feb-2021 to ~$130 in Feb-2023. Compare that to the avg. global W-S price for Lafite in the same time range, from $972 to $1012.
Equating price to quality and how highly allocated it is is also just plain wrong in my view. Especially since quality is a highly subjective thing. Personally as a consumer Iâm all too happy to pay $50 for a wine I find great and would be willing to pay a lot more for. At times it also takes a while for the market to catch up to the quality of the wines, if at all. Take the drastic pricing and surges in demand for wines from the likes of Ulysse Collin, Cedric Bouchard, Guffens-Heynen, dâAngerville, and Lafarge to name a few. And thatâs not to mention that at times producers just want to keep their wines accessible to many. Iâd put LdH in that box.
Some producers take the other approach, making small quantities of wines of hyping them up. Sometimes they are by necessity or circumstances, other times, by design.
And like clockwork the first comment is âDo you think you had an off-bottle?â rather than diffârent strokes for diffârent folks. The only thing missing is a âHow long did you decant it for?â
I do not hate Cellartracker and use it almost everyday and I am fond of it. I thought the name of this thread would stimulate a conversation, although I can see how using a strong word like hate could backfire.
My main intention was to highlight the value of dialogue in the wine community as a whole. I have learned a lot from such dialogue and have been a long time lurker and infrequent poster here.
I know you didnât mean it that way, and I did in fact read your title the way you intended. I was just emphasising that itâs ok to have diverging voices and opinions in wine lest someone read it to mean something else.
Iâm a huge fan of CellarTracker. Just not the notes, which Iâve stated to general derision hereabouts. I disdain uncurated Yelp, Zagat, and other âreviewsâ, too.
But for cellar management, nothing Iâve seen comes close.
While thereâs obviously a frequent correlation, equating low price, especially low resale price, with poor quality is ignorant in the extreme. By that logic we should have been berating the whole of Germany as well.
I have no problem with the tasting note guy not liking Spanish wine, everyone has their own taste. What was annoying was his seeming belief that itâs Spainâs fault and if they only tried harder they would make wine that he likes and that he could pay a lot of money forâŠ
You canât hate CT because a buffoon made some silly comments about Spanish wines. I appreciate the OP bringing up this particular tasting note because it tells me at least on user on CT whose notes I should ignore.
Most Napa Cabs donât have much value in the secondary market either. Is that because theyâre bad or donât age well? No, neither. Itâs because they arenât the darlings of the label drinkers that are more about collecting a bottle than understanding and appreciating whatâs in the bottle.
I for one am glad that Spanish wines, with some exceptions, arenât cult darlings in the secondary market. More good wine at good prices for the rest of us.
I certainly have had better luck finding Napa gems in their drinking window at good prices on WineBid more than I have found any from Bordeaux. The 90s-00s bottles I have had so far have all been excellent and below current release prices.
This excludes Mayacamas, Dunn, Corison, Ridge MB, and similar, considering their ageability and reputation.
What dis??? Hate CellarTracker? Thats like hating your momma! Or calling your sister ugly! Or slapping a baby! Or telling your grandma her fried chicken sucks! I cannot imagine such a comment.