Ranking the last 5 red burgundy vintages

[RyanC]

Oh, ranking. I would rank 2015/16/17/19 all as very good vintages with a large number of high quality wines. 2015/2019 are the more solar of these vintages, time will tell if one has an edge. ‘16 is a bit more traditional in terms of balance. ‘17 is probably the earliest drinking of the lot but also very well balanced. ‘18 is a step behind those but exceptions abound (e.g Lafarge). I haven’t tried much ‘20 yet (just one producer so far).

I wouldn’t hesitate to buy any of those first four from any producer that I know I like until my cellar overflows. ‘18 might be worth a try if you see some discounts that are attractive.

The problem is 18 is generally more expensive than 17 atm.

There are some 18s which are ridiculously good (Lignier cdlr, some others) that may be worth a small premium.

Yeah, '18 is the most producer-specific vintage I can recall. You’re right that Lignier nailed the vintage. So did Lafarge; his '18s are markedly better than his '17s IMO.

[Greg_K]

I would always taste and try things. But I also think it’s a different calculus in terms of what to buy. Having tasted the 2018s out of barrel and then some from bottle, I also passed on some of my allocations because overall I don’t think it’s a very good vintage and I didn’t think the wines were good.
That doesn’t mean there aren’t good wines, but if I had the choice of buying 2018s or any surrounding vintage, I’d almost always choose the other vintage.

when this kind of advice gets metted out here I always wonder: where the heck do so many people get the chance to taste a large variety of these wines without having to buy them?? If i wanna “test out” a bunch of 2018s, then what has happened is i have BOUGHT a bunch of 18s (or at least what my budget considers a bunch). is this just a scale thing, or is it a travel thing, or what? like when people say taste before you buy does that mean buy one bottle before you buy a case, and i just mis-interpret because i always buy in 1-2 bottle quantities, or do yall have places thatll open bottles for you to try them or something? not trying to be snarky ive just always wondered.

It’s a combination. First, I live in New York, so I have the opportunity to go to tastings that I appreciate aren’t available to other people. Second, I drink with a fairly large group of people so a fairly large amount of wines will get opened. Does that mean I’m going to open my grand crus as soon as they arrive? No, but between various dinners, quite a few bottles will be open. Third, travel - I try to make it to burgundy once a year (I was wary of 2018s after tasting them in barrel and super excited by 2020 whites after the same) which helps both in trying the wines and taking to winemakers, some of whom can be surprisingly open. Fourth is Paulee, though it depends on which producers are coming.

[Jayson_Cohen]

I did what Sarah did—long ago w Burgs—tastings at stores and with friends, buying bottles and also tasting alone—but Burgundy was cheap back in the day and sat long on shelves without rationing or a need for snap decisions.

Now as I try and “study” Champagne, it’s a bit cost prohibitive and one has to act fast before a wine disappears. Much harder and more expensive now.

I miss those days of trying before buying Champagne.

COVID certainly and increased demand I suspect have now put a damper on that. Tastings from different stores in New York offering free or low cost tastings, as well as portfolio tastings that were not hard to get invited to, were always valuable.

[Greg_K]

Oh, ranking. I would rank 2015/16/17/19 all as very good vintages with a large number of high quality wines. 2015/2019 are the more solar of these vintages, time will tell if one has an edge. ‘16 is a bit more traditional in terms of balance. ‘17 is probably the earliest drinking of the lot but also very well balanced. ‘18 is a step behind those but exceptions abound (e.g Lafarge). I haven’t tried much ‘20 yet (just one producer so far).

I wouldn’t hesitate to buy any of those first four from any producer that I know I like until my cellar overflows. ‘18 might be worth a try if you see some discounts that are attractive.

The problem is 18 is generally more expensive than 17 atm.

There are some 18s which are ridiculously good (Lignier cdlr, some others) that may be worth a small premium.

Yeah, '18 is the most producer-specific vintage I can recall. You’re right that Lignier nailed the vintage. So did Lafarge; his '18s are markedly better than his '17s IMO.

Lignier 18s are good (and I bought some), but the 17s are better and his 16s are some of the wines of the vintage (the clos de la roche is spectacular), so I’d rather just buy and drink those.

[Greg_K]

Of course, I’m much more tolerant and forgiving of “weaker” vintages than others when it comes to my favorite producers, especially after proper aging. I enjoy the full tapestry that vintage variety provides me. Maybe my palate is just less sensitive.

I think your palate is perfectly sensitive Sarah
I usually enjoy vintage variation as well, but I suspect if you visited a producer and thought they screwed up a vintage you’d be a lot less likely to buy the wines.

[Sarah_Kirschbaum]

Of course, I’m much more tolerant and forgiving of “weaker” vintages than others when it comes to my favorite producers, especially after proper aging. I enjoy the full tapestry that vintage variety provides me. Maybe my palate is just less sensitive.

I think your palate is perfectly sensitive Sarah
I usually enjoy vintage variation as well, but I suspect if you visited a producer and thought they screwed up a vintage you’d be a lot less likely to buy the wines.

100%

[Jayson_Cohen]

Of course, I’m much more tolerant and forgiving of “weaker” vintages than others when it comes to my favorite producers, especially after proper aging. I enjoy the full tapestry that vintage variety provides me. Maybe my palate is just less sensitive.

I think your palate is perfectly sensitive Sarah
I usually enjoy vintage variation as well, but I suspect if you visited a producer and thought they screwed up a vintage you’d be a lot less likely to buy the wines.

Also, despite trying to keep an open mind, after trying on release, in a vintage like 2018, three or four dicey white Burgs in row that are yearly purchases, and finding them all wanting, it’s hard not to extrapolate and establish bias against a whole vintage. That’s what happened a couple years ago.

[MChang]

The problem is 18 is generally more expensive than 17 atm.

There are some 18s which are ridiculously good (Lignier cdlr, some others) that may be worth a small premium.

Yeah, '18 is the most producer-specific vintage I can recall. You’re right that Lignier nailed the vintage. So did Lafarge; his '18s are markedly better than his '17s IMO.

Lignier 18s are good (and I bought some), but the 17s are better and his 16s are some of the wines of the vintage (the clos de la roche is spectacular), so I’d rather just buy and drink those.

I’m sure a lot of this is palate preference. I think the 16 cdlr will be superb in time but it’s not super enjoyable for me at the moment while the 18 is awesome. I’ve had both in the last 3 mo.

[Mattstolz]

This is a good point, and one that doesn’t get discussed much. It takes a lot of work to taste broadly, you’re right. And sometimes it’s not possible. With highly allocated wines, it’s tough to get even a bottle, much less reload if you like it. Or with very expensive wines, it’s cost prohibitive to buy a bottle to taste when what you want to do is age it. Most people don’t have the luxury of visiting producers and barrel tasting, and even for many who do, it takes experience to extrapolate how an in-barrel wine shows into what it might be one day.

What one can do is diligently follow tastings at the best local wine shops. Many stores hold weekly tastings, and often open very nice wines in addition to easy sells. If you form relationships with these stores, you can even have some influence on what they open. You can also choose to buy just a lower end bottle or two from favorite producers to get a sense of how they treated the vintage and make educated decisions from there. Some producers release the lower end wines well in advance of the bigger labels, which makes it easy. Or join with a group of people, each of whom brings a bottle to sample, to get a broader view of the vintage or producer. That’s how I did things, anyway, when I was less set in my ways. Now I generally buy the producers I like every vintage, but buy more when an early taste makes me particularly happy or when people I trust who have already tasted are fully of praise - I’m not immune to influence! Of course, I’m much more tolerant and forgiving of “weaker” vintages than others when it comes to my favorite producers, especially after proper aging. I enjoy the full tapestry that vintage variety provides me. Maybe my palate is just less sensitive.

thanks! youre right, some of that stuff does become a lot more difficult once you get outside of major cities/states. for example, the entire STATE of SC got 18 bottles of Dujac this year, split between domaine, negoce, village, and PC. no ones gonna open one of those in store, and all 18 bottles were spoken for before anyone knew what they tasted like. the finding favorite producers will likely have to be my going strategy in cases like that!

I agree that ‘taste before you buy’ for Burgundy is nearly impossible. La Paulee, for me, is the exception for getting a broad view of a vintage and Covid has blocked me from that the last few years. Oh, and La Paulee occurs long after most of the wines are sold through! Burgundy tastings here in San Francisco are few and far between.

So my strategy is to buy a few things (usually village wines) at the lower end of my fave producers’ ranges and open them as soon as I get them. This gives me a sense of the vintage. But admittedly this too is hard to do with more than with a few producers. Data point: it’s July of 2022, and so far I’ve been able to taste exactly one producer’s 2020s, with the rest somewhere in shipping land.

Result: I have to make nearly all my buying decisions before tasting a single bottle from a vintage.

What is one to do? An unpopular position, but I will freely admit that I read multiple reviewers (William on RPWA, Vinous, Burghound) as well as this board to get a sense of the vintage. Yes, I have to read between the lines. And yes, they influence me a lot. Based on my study, I adjust my buying based on a guess about what I’ll like and what I’ll think of the vintage. I bought a lot more in 2019 than 2018, e.g. Of course I lean heavily on my favorites. I also use the reviewers and you all to get ideas of new producers to try. Especially in better vintages I try to experiment with at least 3 or 4 producers beyond my historical favorites.

Good news: my cellar is overflowing with Burgundy. Wheee!

I must admit I rely heavily on William as well. with the situation I described above of really having to know what you want before the wines even arrive, having a trustworthy reviewer is really important. i also know who i tend to agree with here on the board and that helps. but if it wasnt for some of those things, I really would end up buying the same 3-4 producers every year and never know what to be on the lookout for next! of course, by time wines start getting distributed here in the south, we already missed the boat on them being undiscovered bargains lol.

side note: i really do need to make it to La Paulee sometime.

[Greg_K]

I must admit I rely heavily on William as well. with the situation I described above of really having to know what you want before the wines even arrive, having a trustworthy reviewer is really important. i also know who i tend to agree with here on the board and that helps. but if it wasnt for some of those things, I really would end up buying the same 3-4 producers every year and never know what to be on the lookout for next!

But there’s nothing wrong with that if you enjoy them! The more I drink the more narrow my buying and my drinking becomes because I know my palate better - I know what I like and what I don’t. I’m always happy to try things, but as far as buying for myself, I mostly buy wines I want to drink.

[Mike_Reff]

I loved the 2021s I tasted in red. I tasted out of barrel at Vogue. The wines are going to shock some folks. There is a real sense of harmony. There just won’t be any quantity here. Prices will be very high.

The 2020s are very ripe. To me, a little riper than 2019 but there is a real freshness. An acid spine that makes them interesting to me. An acid spine not present in the 2019s on first .
I am buying mostly white because of my palate now. I have just gravitated to white burgundy.

What did you taste, just came back from the area, and producers are saying the '21 vintage was difficult with frost and ice early on.

[dcornutt]

I loved the 2021s I tasted in red. I tasted out of barrel at Vogue. The wines are going to shock some folks. There is a real sense of harmony. There just won’t be any quantity here. Prices will be very high.

The 2020s are very ripe. To me, a little riper than 2019 but there is a real freshness. An acid spine that makes them interesting to me. An acid spine not present in the 2019s on first .
I am buying mostly white because of my palate now. I have just gravitated to white burgundy.

Don, is that a consensus opinion on 2019 being less fresh than 2020? Agree with you re the one 2021 I tried and the 20s.

Don’t know about that answer. Each producer seemed to have different opinions. There is definitely more acid zip to the finish of the 20s.

[Greg_K]

I loved the 2021s I tasted in red. I tasted out of barrel at Vogue. The wines are going to shock some folks. There is a real sense of harmony. There just won’t be any quantity here. Prices will be very high.

The 2020s are very ripe. To me, a little riper than 2019 but there is a real freshness. An acid spine that makes them interesting to me. An acid spine not present in the 2019s on first .
I am buying mostly white because of my palate now. I have just gravitated to white burgundy.

What did you taste, just came back from the area, and producers are saying the '21 vintage was difficult with frost and ice early on.

The weather in 21 was very difficult, yes. Everyone has said it’s a lighter earlier drinking vintage and the 21s I’ve tasted bear this out.

[MChang]

I loved the 2021s I tasted in red. I tasted out of barrel at Vogue. The wines are going to shock some folks. There is a real sense of harmony. There just won’t be any quantity here. Prices will be very high.

The 2020s are very ripe. To me, a little riper than 2019 but there is a real freshness. An acid spine that makes them interesting to me. An acid spine not present in the 2019s on first .
I am buying mostly white because of my palate now. I have just gravitated to white burgundy.

What did you taste, just came back from the area, and producers are saying the '21 vintage was difficult with frost and ice early on.

The weather in 21 was very difficult, yes. Everyone has said it’s a lighter earlier drinking vintage and the 21s I’ve tasted bear this out.

Another 07 wouldn’t be terrible

[Steve_McL]

I’d probably buy in the following order, but I think all will turn out well and it wouldn’t shock me if the order looked completely different in 15 years.

15
16
19
[Gap]
17
18

15
16
19
17
Not buying 18s much now

Like the OP, I went big on 15s (hey, I like me some fruit). I think 16’ was a tasty vintage which many of us overlooked after the heaps of praise laid on 2015. Personally, I’ve been underwhelmed by the big, over-the-top fruit and alcohol of 18s I tried (le Moine, Sigaut, Mugnier (Marechale), all producers I usually love.

I have had only a few 20s (Henri Magnien, Jadot pre-release) but my initial impressions are “similar to 19’, perhaps more tannin/acid spine”. I have no qualms to buy 20s, 19s and 16s. Loved the Drouhin 18’ 1er Vosne

[Sean_S_y_d_n_e_y]

For what I’ve had:

2019(? only a few, but they’ve been lovely)
2017
2016
2015
2018

Obviously, the 15s and a lot of the 16s will take a ton of time. But I love '17 as a vintage and think the wines will age just fine; they’ve been consistently charming but I don’t believe that to be a badge of dishonour nor do I find them facile or lacking stuffing.

[Warren_Taranow]

Dup

[Warren_Taranow]

in 20 or 30 years, when you should be drinking the wines, the differences will be minimal. Buy producers you like and don’t worry so much about vintage.

I can no longer wait 20-30 years to drink wines. Can you?

Not without a walker and some Thick-It®.

[MChang]

I would also caution people not to sleep on the trio of vintages from 12-14 which are also very good.

12 to me is a bit riper than 13/14 but has great potential; 13 is drinking very well right now in many cases, and 14 is a classic, structured vintage that was a bit overlooked imo. I’m seeing some 14 wines selling for 20-30% less than 17 which seems not warranted imo.

[Gerhard_P]

I would also caution people not to sleep on the trio of vintages from 12-14 which are also very good.

12 to me is a bit riper than 13/14 but has great potential; 13 is drinking very well right now in many cases, and 14 is a classic, structured vintage that was a bit overlooked imo. I’m seeing some 14 wines selling for 20-30% less than 17 which seems not warranted imo.

Agree on these 3 vintages, although I much prefer 2012 ( and 2014) over 2013 … the latter lacks charme for me and rides on acidity … but not a bad vintage, a bit like 2008 …