I’ve seen a LOT of Pax available on the auction market for WAY less than retail.
This new venture is going to be a tough sell, especially in this economy.
I certainly won’t be buying. There’s plenty of good juice out there for a lot less!!!
That is really interesting they are choosing to bottle the 07 Richards under the new name. Out of all the other wines being released this is the last one made by pax, the rest are now by Tyler.
Peter, given your strong opinion, I would be curious to know which Pax wines have you tried that caused you take this position?
Well, as the OP, thanks for all the posts, it’s an interesting read.
Well, it certainly was not my intention to identify sides. I guess I hadn’t been thinking of it that way. While it seems I signed up for the Pax mailing list a few years back, I have actually never purchased from it, though i’ve probably had about a case worth bought at retail or in restaurants over the last 5 years. I currently have 1 bottle of Pax, and 2 Wind Gap syrahs in my cellar. But I have about 300 bottles of syrah from all quarters - so I am a buyer, just not from these sellers. I, like others here it seems, am pretty price sensitive. My (increasingly limited) wallet for syrah at $50 was spoken for long before Donelan, or Wind Gap for that matter.
What was more curious to me was dropping the brand. I honestly don’t care about the gory details, but unless parties are just plain irrational it seems like for the right price, the brand could have been kept - if that was even an issue. I mean, it’s just business right? I’m a techie, not a marketer, but the (not ITB) company I work for recently called it quits on a brand we tried to launch from scratch in 2007. It seems hard to launch a new brand in any market, especially this one. While it’s hard for me to see the Pax brand as ‘dead’, I can (and do) see it having the reputation for being over priced. But that should be fixable right? Did the wines not sell because they were call ‘Pax’ or because they cost $60-90 ?
And my second thought was to Bennetts point - if you are going to rebrand why not reposition on price as well? To me, keeping the prices the same and just trying out new brands from scratch is not going to be a viable business strategy. Though a more reasonable number of bottlings may help, there still seem to be 9, albeit some are red blends, but that is not a small number.
Frank, I’ve tried only the Syrah based wines - but of those I’ve tried a number of different cuvees from a number of different vintages. To me theses wines are targeted to a particular audience; you have the heavy bottle, slightly fancy label, high extraction/concentration and a ton of alcohol. Very difficult to place these wines, marks of chocholate and a similar amount of sweetness you find in softdrinks. I can’t drink these wines. At least not more than a sip.
Peter, it is hard to believe you’ve tried them all given your comments. But I’ll get to that in a second. There was an interview with Pax years ago published on a blog where he is quoted as saying something to the effect of “we don’t really have a marketing plan.” I think that was honest (and unwise!), and I don’t think there was a premeditated RP-palate appeal wine style. I think Pax was just doing what he thought he had to do to make great wine. Let’s not forget he had never made commercial wine before and Wells at Copain was one of his original consultants. Both used to make huge wines, and both have moved away from it. When you are not as sure about when to pick, its easier in CA to pick late (because people add water and acid) and the result is often showy and big…i.e. popular. But the whole thing was based on a dream and passion, and I think you are unfair to say it was some kind of marketing ploy.
So there we certainly some huge wines, and some of the early wines were over ripe. I hope to bring a little more refinement. Kobler Syrah is rarely over 14.2% alcohol, we get Roussanne in at 12.1% max (literally, we are often wondering if we are going to get enough sugar). Do we have a range, sure? But this is CA terroir. I am not picking intentionally late, I’m picking when things are ripe (which I know differs for some people). Coming from HdV - where we were not afraid to pick earlier than everyone else - I am prepared to risk earlier picks for balance. Will Obsidian Syrah be big? Yes. Will it be over ripe? NO! But the rocky mountain soils of Obsidian (and I’m talking almost pure rock) simply produce a big wine (come taste the skins with me at harvest). The 2009 alcohols range from 11.5% to 15%, this year we have no wine over 15% (yet) and that’s without water adds! 2008 will have a few more over 15% but I don’t have a problem with that.
To say we only make one style is -quite frankly - demonstrative of ignorance of the portfolio and the developmental of the wine style (even some 2007s have more restraint as the vintage, like 2009, had flavors earlier). I suggest trying 2006 Cuvee Kelite, or 2007 Kobler Syrah; savory and lower in alcohol - you might be surprised. Also, smaller bottles, and I assure you no residual sugar.
Best,
Jim D - Rebranding can be the right choice if you’re trying to radically change the image of the product line. It’s always a call based on the specifics of the situation, but if Pax has a rep for high prices, an RP style wine, etc and if you’re changing pretty much all of that then rebranding might be easier. The question is whether you’ll be better off in a few years with a new brand or the old one.
This ignores business or legal issues of course. Pax was Pax’s first name, not just some madeup name and thus there might have been a business agreement to not use the Pax name as he’s not involved any longer.
Tyler - it’s somewhat disingenuous to use the 2009s as examples - they’re not Pax made wines and, of course, not available.
Tyler, that is a fair comment - I have not tried them all by any means. I don’t think I wrote that either. The ones I have tried, I didn’t like. But I am open to your suggestion and willing to try the wines you suggest.
It is sad to see people make the same dumb mistakes. Yup. The prices for these wines are pretty close (perhaps a bit less) then the Pax wines that do not sell.
I liked these wines years ago. Was on the list. But as often happens there were the high RP scores. Then the prices doubled. As the brand was now popular there became instead of a handful of wines there were like 20 different syrahs. I don’t doubt the wine making ability of the team but with all those fruit sources and spread out attention the quality dropped as the prices rose.
I think if there was common sense there would be a new line of 4-6 wines made with the best of their ability priced say at $40. But much like the homeowner who could have got a million for his home four years ago…there is an insistence to now charge 1.2 million when the market demands half a million.
I don’t think it’s a CA syrah issue. Yes. It’s not as popular as chard or pinot or cab. But if you make a good syrah (ok, and let’s say it gets 93 in WS) people will buy it. Maybe not a case sight unseen, we have all bought too many highly scored wines that we open and say "yuk’ But if the wine is good and people say “Ya, this really is a great wine” they will go back and buy more. Savignon blanc is not popular but the Merry Edwards 2007 SB flew off the shelves at over $40 a bottle when it got a 96 last year.
Any syrah that is north of $40 better be spectacular. That is just reality. Consider the competition-- the likes of Carlisle, Copain, Ojai, Tensley, etc. Tyler, what is the pricing of the new brand?
This is really entertaining stuff…
Pax Mahle
Pax Mahle Wines L.L.C. ![[tease.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/c/c5b32b76bebaa359b0452ae247b61189ffe5fa7e.gif "tease"){kind=small}
Hello Pax! When you coming to Fresno
Paso’s nicer… 
So, when can we expect to see a new Pax Mahle wine?
David
Wind Gap is Pax’s new wine.
Rick,
I am not sure how the “lawsuit” settled (I think that there was one), but Joe Donelan owned the Pax name, not Pax. He has chosen to stop using the name, and I am quote certain it is a business decision. I am quite certain that any Pax wines left in the cellars at the winery will go out retail at $29 or less, destroying what is left of that name and, thus, making it necessary, from a business perspective, to start all over again.
No offense to Tyler, Pax or Joe D., but the Pax name, to many, is synonymous with “Parkerized,” high alcohol, awful wines. Why? Look at the older vintages of this stuff and try them, and they fit that bill. I love many high octane CA Syrahs, but I can do without older Pax. In about 2006 vintage, there was a transformation to make different wines, by then, too little too late. You lose potential customers (like Peter Baekgaard already). First impressions are everything. Well, maybe Pax will take some offense, but considering he logged in, posted and offered nothing to this discussion, I do not mind telling him that I hated his older vintages. Did I try them all, Frank? No, but I tasted enough of them.
As to other comments, good Syrah does not sell well in my market (NY/NJ/CT). 93 points for Syrah from WS does not even guarantee sales.
If I were consulting for these wineries, I would tell them to learn how to make great Cab or great Pinot Noir. I love to drink many of these great Syrahs. They represent some of the greatest QPRs in the world, but the consumer, in this rare instance, seems not to care about good scores and cheap prices. Weird.
Daniel, this kind of quote is a reach: “…but the Pax name, to many, is synonymous with “Parkerized,” high alcohol, awful wines”.
Awful? To many? Maybe you should rephrase your line to say “IMO”, or “according to the people I drink with”. Indeed, some of the wines had high alcohols and I stopped buying them in roughly the 2005 vintage as I could not store them in my unit but I have no issue with the flavors or size of the Walker Vine Hill bottlings, nor Castelli Knight. In fact, the 2005 version of the latter could be my personal WOTY, as I have it on my short list. I’ll just push back and say your comments are exaggerated and generalized to me.
Only Pax can speak to a style change, one that you seem to point out occurred. I did not drink nor have I tried any of the 2006 Pax designations so I can’t offer a comment but if you try the new Wind Gap, based on the handfulI have drank, there is indeed a different style, one I like.
Frank
Yes, to many people, Pax is guilty of that association.
You, yourself, say you stopped buying it.
Now, Wind Gap is a different style but you have not tasted the 2006 Pax wines, so you, yourself, cannot discern whether the syle on Pax changed… I suggest you taste the 2006 Pax wines, and then you will draw the same conclusion that I and MANY people have. The style changed, for the better, only was too late for that brand.
You live by the sword, you die by the sword.
Many people stopped buying Pax because the earlier vintages were “more than a mouthful.”
With those high scores, I wonder how many cases Parker has in his cellar. Truthfully, I doubt he has much of it, if any.
Anyone ever see a Hedonist Gazette note on Pax?
I have been following Pax in a Tom Hill-like fashion. I remember when Pax came to NYC with barrel samples in plastic soda bottles and a bunch of us had dinner with him in Tribeca, he was in town to find a distributor. Kevin Knox ended up trying to chase down Jerry Seinfeld to make him taste some Pax wine. That Unkle Kev. These wines were, I believe, the 1998 vintage.
I enjoyed the wines over the years, particularly the Castelli-Knight bottling. But I have never made the kind of money which could allow broad purchasing from this winery and eventually I stopped buying. I remember a call from a consultant hired by Joe who called me and asked why I wasn’t buying. I mentioned price but also, that in my opinion, the wines did not improve with age. I think I have tasted close to 70 bottles of Pax over the years so the sample set is fairly good. I simply enjoyed the wine better on release than years down the road.
As an anecdotal note, before I moved to Charlotte I was the cellar master at Chelsea Wine & Storage. We had 5-6 customers who were buying Pax from Winebid at prices way below release price and they said they would never buy on release when they were so much cheaper on the secondary market.
I have never tasted any Wind Gap wines. I have, however, bought a few bottles of Allemand and Clape recently. I wish Pax and Joe, et. al. good luck with their ventures. But I do agree that prices have to come down substantially. If this is not possible due to production costs, double good luck.
marc,
Age poorly? Uh-oh. Better start gifting my 05’s.
Mr. Posner,
According to the publicly available information from the Trademark Office, I am the sole owner of the PAX name and brand. I think we both agree that it will have little to no value by the time the current inventory is sold thru.
Wind Gap is in fact one of my d/b/a’s under Pax Mahle Wines L.L.C., along w/ a couple that you haven’t heard of yet and one other you have. My confidential settlement w/ my previous partner closed in early 2009. It seems obvious (to me at least) from your statements in this and many other threads where the foundation for your certain (but incorrect) information is from, you have a powerful voice that people respect and listen to and spreading someone else’s hidden agenda is below you… (typos edited)
Public forums are no place to air dirty laundry, although they seem to be a place where it is ok for lies and deceit to go unquestioned (at least this thread makes it seem so).
For every single person who hates a wine it is someone else’s absolute favorite. For something to be great, some must hate it. While I rarely stumbled into the great category with the Pax wines, they were hardly ‘Parkerized’, 2001 Castelli was 13.7% and only 3 of the 90 wines we released breached 16%, you didn’t like some of the ones you tried, great, I probably don’t like them either…The person who doesn’t make mistakes, doesn’t make anything…they just talk about it….The shift began in 2005 FWIW…not 2006….
I have been avoiding adding to this post because righting every wrong in this thread would take me weeks and I would gain absolutely nothing from it.
I created a winery that no longer exists. Any Questions?
My current creation, the varietals I am making, how they are made, the quantities in which they are made, the prices and how they are being offered and sold tells my story better than I am able….and also indicates the presence and execution of a plan…my plan…if you don’t get lost, you will never find a new route…
Linda & Brett,
I Paso thru Robles en route to FresYes?
Marc,
I hope you are well and that our paths cross again soon my friend…I too bought some Allemand recently…
Pax Mahle
Pax Mahle Wines L.L.C.