I think you mean 2.5cm. 25cm is almost 10 inches.
I assume most know this info, but here is my take on it.
Kiln dried wood will retain green flavors, my exerience is only with American oak think dill and coconut. I have never heard of French oak being kiln dried. If in fact European oak was being kiln dried I think that would be big news.
The barrel industry in the US stems from the Bourbon industry in Kentucky, Where they use a tremendous number of barrels. Kiln drying is cheaper and obviously faster. The goal in ageing sprits in barrel is to get toast, caramel, possibly and color (that’s if they didn’t already add a coloring agent). The greeness remaining after kiln drying does not have a major flavor effect on bourbon due to the nature of the spirit.
When wines started to be put in to these new barrels the flavor impact was great, Think Silver Oak as the poster child for dill and coconut in wines barreled in American Oak.
Once the French coopers showed up about 20 years ago and started to air dry the American oak the dill and coconut flavors began to subside. Air drying the staves reduces the level of lactones which in American oak is high in to begin with.
Most of the talk these days is about the density of the grain as being the more important issue with european oak as well as the who the coooper is. In France they have proposed to do away with individual forest designations (i.e. Allier, Vosges, Nevers, etc.)altogether using regional designations such as Eastern France. Good article herehttp://www.winesandvines.com/template.cfm?section=news&content=65627 This is a subscription site so you may not be able to see the page
You’re good Bob. Actually, I meant 25mm. ![[thankyou.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/d/df165fe9c1593d19166ae7e1ffe5e272089cc07b.gif "thankyou"){kind=small}
Thanks for the great article, Mark. I am not a member and could read it without any difficulty - it just loaded right away with one click.
Right on! ![[berserker.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/8/8600bbd4810d342b8fbd4ffb62b4f0026275fd37.gif "berserker"){kind=small}
Back to one of the original questions…
“Do oak barrels consist of red or white oak, or both?”
Barrels are made from the class of oak species called “white oak”. The other general class of oak is called “red oak”. White oaks have tyloses, think of them as gel like sack that plug the hollow dead cells and dry, thus blocking what would otherwise be kind of like unblocked pipes running the the longitudinal direction of the tree trunk. Red oaks don’t have tyloses.
As for differences in wood from younger trees and older trees, it makes sense to me that there would be many differences, for a number of reasons, particularly because of the cell size (tightness of the grain) differences of young vs mature trees and because older wood accumulates “extractives” (chemical compounds) that are not present in younger wood. Forest density, season length, rainfall, and a host of other factors also affect cell wall size, within the year and between years (in fact, in non-equatorial areas, each year there are two distinct sets of wood cells produced (so called early wood and late wood- its why you see “rings” in a tree trunk), each having different characteristics; the proportion of these differ each growing season.
Finally, there aere certainly chemical differences in wood that is air-dried vs kiln-dried. At a minimum, varying with kiln temp settings, there is more volatilization of chemical compounds in kiln-drying, but I suspect that there are also chemical reactions that also occur in the kiln that otherwise wouldn’t.
(Nice after 25 or so years to use some of my almost totally wasted undergrad/grad Forestry/Wood Science background)
Vincent,
Thanks for the reply. In my case, I’d like to see a scientific study of the Brett issue, for the same reason we find that Bret can remain viable in barrels after ozone treatment - wood is essentially a block of parallel straws; even with tyloses, Brett can get into the hollow cells and remain viable at varying distances from the original wood surface.
One other question: does the company you mentioned refurb a small winery customer’s own barrels for them or just sell barrels they have in stock?
For me, the cost/risk of spending $1K for a barrel, maintained by me, with at least three uses over time, holding at least $15K+ worth of wine each time is still favorable even if the refurbed barrel from an unknown source is free. (Of course, some contend that new air-dried barrels may already be infected before the first drop of wine flows into them them…)
Tom, Good to put that Forestry stuff to work. You talk about tyloses but you leave it up to the reader to figure what tyoses hvae to do with anything. You need to explain that Europesan oak species Quercus robur (red oak) as well as Quecus petraea and Quercus sesilis do not have tyoloses and to use power tools to cut the staves qill render the barresl as leaker where as Quecus alba has these and cna be cut by power tools which reduces the cost. Sorry just filling in the blanks for you.
This link is to Chapter 9 The Influence of Oak, Understanding Wine Technology by David Bird MW. This is requiured reading for the WSET Diplomand as well as the MW program.
“Tom, Good to put that Forestry stuff to work. You talk about tyloses but you leave it up to the reader to figure what tyoses hvae to do with anything. You need to explain that Europesan oak species Quercus robur (red oak) as well as Quecus petraea and Quercus sesilis do not have tyoloses and to use power tools to cut the staves qill render the barresl as leaker where as Quecus alba has these and cna be cut by power tools which reduces the cost. Sorry just filling in the blanks for you.
This link is to Chapter 9 The Influence of Oak, Understanding Wine Technology by David Bird MW. This is requiured reading for the WSET Diplomand as well as the MW program.
dbqa” onclick=“window.open(this.href);return false;”
Mark, I have not read the book, but, as I did explain, tyloses block the hollow, longitudinal cells that wood almost completely consists of. I don’t have the time to do an extensive documentation project to counter your incorrect assertion about the lack of tyloses in the three species you mentioned, but just do a google search of the species with the word tyloses, for example, http://bio.kuleuven.be/sys/iawa/IAWA%20J%20pdf’s/14.no.1-4.1993/14.3.239_243.pdf" onclick=“window.open(this.href);return false;, Hungarian Oak - Hungarian Barrels” onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
“White oak” has been used exclusively in wood barrels to contain all sorts of liquids for centuries. It s because, due to the high proportion of tyloses in “white oaks”, few other commercially available types of tree species could contain liquids without the liquids flowing out through the ends of the wood grain. No amount or type of power tools or woodcutting angles can seal longitudinal wood cells in oak staves.
Sorry, just telling you you are completely wrong…and if the author of that book makes the same assertions, he is too…
Tom, By completely wrong I assume you mean that the 3 other species of oak do contain tyloses but not to the extent that white oak does. I’m just trying to understand what “competley wrong” means.
The link is not about the subject of tyoloses but but about the infuence of oak and that is what the thread is about.
What I mean is what I said, your assertion that these species do not contain tyloses is absolutely incorrect.
And, it is precisely because these species contain tyloses that they are used to contain liquids like wine…there are, of course, other reasons that eventually contributed to the exclusive use of the class of oak species commonly referred to in the US as “white oaks” in winemaking, but it all began with tyloses…I’ll leave the discussion of these other reasons for others…
Read the first link again, do you see the mention that the species contains tyloses? I edited my original comment to include a second link that spells it out more clearly…
I get it,
Question - is the assertion that the lower proportion of tyloses is certain species requires that they be hand split so they do not leak as oposed to American grown Quercus alba correct?
Guys;
These are really great and informative posts and links. Thanks!
r
As I understand it, hand-splitting can help reduce permeability, by reducing the amount of across-the-grain separation of cell walls. There is also a marketing aspect to “hand” -splitting. I believe that some coopers use industrial wood-cutting techniques.
Mark, thank you for pointing out that American cooperage has undergone some profound changes. I’ve been saying for years now on the boards that American oak does not necessarily impart dill flavors anymore, but once brown belt drinkers get that into their heads they defend that belief regardless of proof otherwise. Which is not to say that modern wines in Amoak will never have dill tones, but it’s just as likely due to the vineyard, especially if it is seen across vintages.
I have heard from coopers that the age of the forest does matter, but Tom has given the best explanation I’ve ever heard. I do remember a French cooper giving an interesting historical insight … after the Franco-Prussion war and two World Wars, the oak forests of France were so badly decimated that for decades, most ‘French’ oak was actually sourced from the Baltic, until the forests were rejuvenated. So for decades, most French oak was really (gasp!) Hungarian.
John, I agree with Vincent, it’s not like dried wood is still green in the middle … shaved down to “raw” wood? I would be scared to find out who these greenhorn winemakers on the ‘other board’ are … or maybe they didn’t realize that the barrels are also retoasted? But since most of the ‘other board’ winemakers are Napa/Sonoma based, and the process has been around for almost 40 years, you’d think they would at least be familiar with it. Heck, I’m familiar with it and I’m down here in backroad Paso.
On the porosity issue … Perhaps Tom can help with this, but I don’t see the porosity (structure of the cells) changing from the exterior to the interior of the stave. After all, the whole stave IS the interior of the tree already! Plus, the process of toasting the barrel ‘roughens’ the surface and thereby raises the surface area exposed to the wine which is one of the reasons for toasting a barrel in the first place–so the ‘porosity’ of a refurbished barrel would be the same as a new barrel.
Tom, great information. Wow.
To answer your question about Brett, most reputable/knowledgeable winemakers are going to dispose of a Brett barrel and not even try to clean or refurbish it.
Alex, on the angels’ share, I remember Ken Volk used to have barrels shaved and retoasted at Wild Horse 15 years ago. He experimented with doing it twice, but eventually decided that the evaporation rate was too high, plus the barrels became more fragile and prone to breakage or leaking. Maybe not a big issue for a tiny cellar, but for a 100,000 case winery it was a big issue. (Barrel Builders in Calistoga has been doing this for over 30 years.)
I didn’t meen “green” as in not cured wood, but rather shaved down beyond where the 2/3 yr seasoning(which cooperages claim to be a critical process in fine barrel production) penetrates. Why would they bother storing staves out in the sun, wind and rain for two to three years if it wasn’t necassary? I am all in favor of recooping barrels, just trying to understand what the differences are. Go easy on me Tom, I’m not looking for a fight. 
On porosity, I believe that you are correct, for the reason you stated.
My pleasure to provide the info.
As some on “another board” know, I have little faith in humans when money is involved…if barrel refurb companies are buying barrels, I would expect that some wineries would be willing to take a buck for a barrel that they would otherwise junk…maybe it’s just me who thnks this way
Tom, I talked with a winemaker the other day about possible brett issues in re-cooped barrels. He said plainly that several hours of toasting above 140F is going to take care of any yeast cells. As to your point about cells further into the wood, that’s possible I suppose but as you also state, that could be an issue with a new barrel so it’s not some different point of exposure unique to re-cooped barrels. Still, I don’t have the science and would love to learn more about potential risks – with all barrels, re-cooped included.
Absolutely, reWine will refurbish your barrels. I think cost for refurbing your own barrel is $275, where the cost is $350 for a barrel they procured. Don’t quote me though, but I think that’s right.
FWIW, the refurbed barrels that I’ve seen have the brands of the producers they came from. The one I have is a Chehalem 2004 barrel. I know Mike and Harry. I have no problem with a barrel that came from them.
For us Cali producers, Barrel builders shaves and toasts barrels for $120- including heads, and I think Recoop, in Santa Rosa, is $165.
John, regarding your last comment, I’ll try…
Why bother storing staves outside for 2-3 years? In the wood processing industry it is standard practice to “cure” lumber after the log is sawed into boards. The primary purpose of the curing process is to dry the wood to an acceptable water content/level of dryness so that the boards have dimensional stability (don’t warp). For large-scale outfits, it is more economical to “cure” via kiln-drying; smaller producers typically air-dry.
2-3 years of air-drying is not unique to lumber used for barrel staves; and coopers, like most businesses, certainly use marketing techniques when attempting to differentiate their products - in my opinion, depending upon local temperature and humidity conditions, oak boards of the thickness used to make barrel staves probably take at least 2 years to air-dry to required levels.
In winemaking, I suspect that traditional, small-scale techniques of air-drying have lead to a certain type of product characteristics that winemakers have come to rely on. I also suspect that there are noticeable aroma/taste-imparting differences between air-dried and kiln-dried lumber.
Thanks Vincent
Wow, that’s very inexpensive. Two thoughts – one is that I’m amazed by the lower prices for winery supplies in CA. I saw a bunch of once filled barrels on the market down there for $200 where the going rate here seems to be about double. Two, I can’t speak to the process Barrel builders or Recoop uses, but I wonder if there isn’t a time difference in the shaving and refitting and especially the toasting. Could be simple economics - more economy of scale for the two you mention, cheaper prices in the market to begin with. Could be different technique. I’ll have to check it out this off season.