Question for mailing list members

[Michael_Martin]

There’s a long list (pun intended) of wine enthusiasts on this board who started out buying from lists and eventually came to regret it. Not that all lists are bad, but they can quickly fill your cellar with wines you may no longer enjoy years from now.

This is not a buying from a list problem.

[Eric_Lundblad]

If you’re buying from the list to get things you want and can’t get otherwise, that’s one thing.

But for the wineries who produce enough that they can’t sell it all directly, you’ll probably get a better price in a store. Wineries generally sell at full list price. If they discounted, they would piss off their distributors and retailers, and they’d lose their distribution channels. So, if the wine is available retail, it will almost always be cheaper than at the winery.

If that’s the case, the only reason to buy direct is David Buecker’s – because you want your money going to the producer. If you buy when the wine is released, storage/provenance shouldn’t be an issue.

The reverse can happen as well, being more expensive at retail than direct from the winery (and not because the winery is charging less than retail that’s implied by wholesale/fob prices). It’s happened a few times to my wines, most recently on my chards (it’s not available anymore, and not on wine-searcher, otherwise I wouldn’t mention it). Just shows that the small wine producer market isn’t always perfectly efficient.

[Pat_K]

Another benefit with some clubs is periodic specials on wine and/or shipping. Impact may = ability to find wines not readily available which offer good QPR even when tax & shipping are figured in. Two lists I’m on now, Tablas Creek and Navarro (Mendocino) have discounted shipping offers + featured wines that are also discounted for a limited time. Without being on a mailing list, there are so many offers out there that I appreciate targeted information. Once you’ve found some reliable producers it might make sense to get on the lists. It hasn’t obligated me to buy; if I lose interest, I unsubscribe. In the Tablas situation, I am a Vindependent member. That would require discontinuing the wine club member ship if I so choose. This can be done.

[Wes_Barton]

There’s a long list (pun intended) of wine enthusiasts on this board who started out buying from lists and eventually came to regret it. Not that all lists are bad, but they can quickly fill your cellar with wines you may no longer enjoy years from now.

This is not a buying from a list problem.

It is in one important aspect, which is the experience of many people over the years: They get on an exclusive list on recommendation, rather than tasting, then buy for years without tasting, because they are building a cellar and respecting the drinking windows. One can easily spend a lot of money on quite a large number of bottles before deciding they aren’t so much a fan of that winery. Some of these people are trying to take the fast track to being a serious wine collector. So, don’t be a lemming. Don’t buy into the idea there are wines you are supposed to like, or that wines are better due to their exclusivity or price.

There are so many wines to explore that aren’t on lists in the first place. There are a crazy number of lists. Explore and fall in love with a winery. Have a good reason to get on a particular list (and don’t feel you have to be on any). There definitely are excellent ones.

[Michael_Martin]

There’s a long list (pun intended) of wine enthusiasts on this board who started out buying from lists and eventually came to regret it. Not that all lists are bad, but they can quickly fill your cellar with wines you may no longer enjoy years from now.

This is not a buying from a list problem.

It is in one important aspect, which is the experience of many people over the years: They get on an exclusive list on recommendation, rather than tasting, then buy for years without tasting, because they are building a cellar and respecting the drinking windows. One can easily spend a lot of money on quite a large number of bottles before deciding they aren’t so much a fan of that winery. Some of these people are trying to take the fast track to being a serious wine collector. So, don’t be a lemming. Don’t buy into the idea there are wines you are supposed to like, or that wines are better due to their exclusivity or price.

There are so many wines to explore that aren’t on lists in the first place. There are a crazy number of lists. Explore and fall in love with a winery. Have a good reason to get on a particular list (and don’t feel you have to be on any). There definitely are excellent ones.

I get what you’re saying. I too have fallen for some of the hype on here for certain wines that I had to wait to buy. However, I tasted early in the process of buying to know that they were not for me. I don’t blame that on the allocation aspect, I blame that on me.

[John_Morris]

If you’re buying from the list to get things you want and can’t get otherwise, that’s one thing.

But for the wineries who produce enough that they can’t sell it all directly, you’ll probably get a better price in a store. Wineries generally sell at full list price. If they discounted, they would piss off their distributors and retailers, and they’d lose their distribution channels. So, if the wine is available retail, it will almost always be cheaper than at the winery.

If that’s the case, the only reason to buy direct is David Buecker’s – because you want your money going to the producer. If you buy when the wine is released, storage/provenance shouldn’t be an issue.

The reverse can happen as well, being more expensive at retail than direct from the winery (and not because the winery is charging less than retail that’s implied by wholesale/fob prices). It’s happened a few times to my wines, most recently on my chards (it’s not available anymore, and not on wine-searcher, otherwise I wouldn’t mention it). Just shows that the small wine producer market isn’t always perfectly efficient.

Yes, that’s why I said “probably,” “generally” and “almost always.” You make a good point that the exceptions are often very small producers.

[Jeff_M1]

There’s a lot of really good answers as to why to buy from a mailing list. With rare exceptions, I’ve tasted everything I am purchasing from a mailing visit doing winery visits, mostly Napa and Sonoma wines. I buy with confidence knowing I am getting good bottles from the winery direct.

There’s a few wineries where I have stopped purchasing from their list and buy at local retail. Shipping costs from winery direct sales can be a deal breaker and push me to retail or in some instances I just move on from that winery.

[AndrewH]

This is not a buying from a list problem.

It is in one important aspect, which is the experience of many people over the years: They get on an exclusive list on recommendation, rather than tasting, then buy for years without tasting, because they are building a cellar and respecting the drinking windows. One can easily spend a lot of money on quite a large number of bottles before deciding they aren’t so much a fan of that winery. Some of these people are trying to take the fast track to being a serious wine collector. So, don’t be a lemming. Don’t buy into the idea there are wines you are supposed to like, or that wines are better due to their exclusivity or price.

There are so many wines to explore that aren’t on lists in the first place. There are a crazy number of lists. Explore and fall in love with a winery. Have a good reason to get on a particular list (and don’t feel you have to be on any). There definitely are excellent ones.

I get what you’re saying. I too have fallen for some of the hype on here for certain wines that I had to wait to buy. However, I tasted early in the process of buying to know that they were not for me. I don’t blame that on the allocation aspect, I blame that on me.

+1. Of the lists I’m on and buy from, all are wines I either tried first or was exposed to through Berserker Day (minimal initial investment). Going long/big on a wine without tasting it to me is foolhardy, whether buying at retail or by mail.

[Merrill_Lindquist]

I’ll answer from my point of view as a winery who sells by mailing list only (and one retailer). Access and provenance. Access here is key. My mailing list receives notification of when a new wine is available and at a pre-release (lower) price. These offers will many times contain single barrel or Special Selection releases that do not make it to the EMH website.

But provenance. I cringe when I hear someone bought the Black Cat from a secondary source that I did not sell to. Who knows how it was stored and by how many people? I’m not talking about the random corked wine; I am talking about heat damaged wines from inappropriate exposure. That’s what I really dislike.

[Russ_Williams]

Provenance.

[K_Tran1]

All reputable stores have as good provenance. Why do you assume provenance is not there?

[Dave_McIsaac]

All reputable stores have as good provenance. Why do you assume provenance is not there?

Have you been to a PA State Store??

[David_P]

I love this forum! So many thoughtful and well reasoned replies. Very much appreciated.

[David_Bu3ker]

All reputable stores have as good provenance. Why do you assume provenance is not there?

If you are not a regular customer, and know the shop, it’s easy to be fooled in cool weather. I have been in a few shops, in the U.S. and abroad, that were brutally hot in summer, but seemed fine in winter. I knew to only grab new (i.e. in recent weeks) release stuff, but I am sure many folks did not.

[Chris_G_l_a_r_n_e_r]

All reputable stores have as good provenance. Why do you assume provenance is not there?

Have you been to a PA State Store??

LOL I feel your pain. I’ve returned many bottles that were bad and will never buy discounted wines from them again.

[Anton_D]

I’ll answer from my point of view as a winery who sells by mailing list only (and one retailer). Access and provenance. Access here is key. My mailing list receives notification of when a new wine is available and at a pre-release (lower) price. These offers will many times contain single barrel or Special Selection releases that do not make it to the EMH website.

But provenance. I cringe when I hear someone bought the Black Cat from a secondary source that I did not sell to. Who knows how it was stored and by how many people? I’m not talking about the random corked wine; I am talking about heat damaged wines from inappropriate exposure. That’s what I really dislike.

You remind me of another great reason to support mailing lists: it can allow an artisan winemaker/grower to stay small and keep it simple. No need to expand in order to survive.

I love the ‘winery - consumer’ direct model for business.

I do not know the answer, but without this direct to consumer model, would many of our favorite ‘micro wineries’ even be able to stick around?

[David_K2]

All reputable stores have as good provenance. Why do you assume provenance is not there?

Have you been to a PA State Store??

He said reputable.

I have never had a problem buying wines on release from reputable stores. I do not agree with the notion that buying direct from a producer provides any better provenance than from a reputable retailer.

[Merrill_Lindquist]

I’ll answer from my point of view as a winery who sells by mailing list only (and one retailer). Access and provenance. Access here is key. My mailing list receives notification of when a new wine is available and at a pre-release (lower) price. These offers will many times contain single barrel or Special Selection releases that do not make it to the EMH website.

But provenance. I cringe when I hear someone bought the Black Cat from a secondary source that I did not sell to. Who knows how it was stored and by how many people? I’m not talking about the random corked wine; I am talking about heat damaged wines from inappropriate exposure. That’s what I really dislike.

You remind me of another great reason to support mailing lists: it can allow an artisan winemaker/grower to stay small and keep it simple. No need to expand in order to survive.

I love the ‘winery - consumer’ direct model for business.

I do not know the answer, but without this direct to consumer model, would many of our favorite ‘micro wineries’ even be able to stick around?

The answer to your question, Doctor, is a huge no.

[K_Tran1]

All reputable stores have as good provenance. Why do you assume provenance is not there?

Have you been to a PA State Store??

He said reputable.

I have never had a problem buying wines on release from reputable stores. I do not agree with the notion that buying direct from a producer provides any better provenance than from a reputable retailer.

Yes, I did.
A good winery that you want to be on the mailing list will not deal with some back alley store in PA and ruin their reputation with provenance issue from the store.

[David_Bu3ker]

All reputable stores have as good provenance. Why do you assume provenance is not there?

Have you been to a PA State Store??

He said reputable.

I have never had a problem buying wines on release from reputable stores. I do not agree with the notion that buying direct from a producer provides any better provenance than from a reputable retailer.

I have. Though the problem was generally with the distribution, not retail.