If premox is not actually oxidation and can be cleared up over time… then shouldn’t the vast majority clear up then with time or more oxygen instead of small random cases?
The theory is that the bottles aren’t oxidized but are going through a temporary phase that shows like oxidation. In any event, a ‘71 or ‘91 tells us nothing about premox. Any bottle of wine can oxidize, white burg or otherwise. We are talking about the particular phenomenon that started around ‘95/‘96.
It’s just a theory. The evidence for it, according to Morris, is what he’s experiencing. I don’t think anyone on this board is saying it is a proven fact at this point. I don’t think Morris would say that. It’s just a hypothesis.
A hypothesis without evidence? Pie in the sky?
We should careful not to confuse two different issues here. The issue of wines that seem off initially and might be felt to be oxidized but a few hours later come around is totally different from the concept that wines might be oxidized at a certain point in their life but come around a few years later.
It would be nice to be able to pin him down on what he is actually referring to by “coming back into the fold”, but in listening to his podcast, it appeared to me he was talking about wines coming back to being normal over the course of years. I have no idea how he felt that he would know that a wine would be previously oxidized, then back to normal, without sampling the wine at each phase, which as far as I know would be relatively impossible. (If he has actually done this, it would be nice to know how he accomplished it.).
The basis for the theory is his own tastings. You can call it insufficient if you want. 20 years out and there is no explanation for premox. I’m interested in what jasper has to say.
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I think what he is saying is that he has a number of bottles of wine X. Over a period of years, some/most/all of the bottles were oxidized. But recently, none have been. The number of bottles at issue is significant enough that he believes it isn’t mere happenstance.
So if I leave an apple that’s been cut in half and turned brown on tha counter long enough with some sulfur it will become a brand new apple again?
I can’t for the life of me think of how something could become un-oxidized, and would love to know the chemical reaction behind it.
You are missing the point. Jasper’s contention is that the wines aren’t oxidized but are temporarily undergoing something that mimics oxidation.
Somebody asked a question about Ch Montelena. The answer is ‘pinking’…White Wine that has never been exposed to oxygen, as whites were made back then, can briefly turn color after bottling, when the wine is exposed to oxygen. Nowadays, white wines are made differently. But back then wine was protected at every stage with lots of SO2.
Sounds like cold fusion. . . ![[wow.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/7/7d450e9830889c8943b674446a21b7254cad657e.gif "wow"){kind=small}
Exactly.
Kris, here’s what he says near the end (my emphasis):
Some versions of the phenomenon appear to be temporary. Is it the apparent reversal of oxidation - which may perhaps be possible if the oxidation process has not gone too far - or the reversal of > apparent oxidation, if we are sometimes mistaking other complex processes for oxidation? > I am far from certain of either of these things, though they might mean that the total incidence of oxidized wines may not be quite as high as we fear.
Here are so, me specific examples he cites of the reversal of apparent oxidation:
The most astonishing case in my experience came during a tasting of several vintages of Domaine Bonneau du Martray’s Corton-Charlemagne. The 1996 was a dark brown on opening and smelled as though it were almost completely oxidized. I fancied there might still be a vestige of fruit on the otherwise oxidized palate, which was a surprise given the dark brown color. But wait… The color after just a few minutes of aeration was now a much paler brown-and 20 minutes later this was the best wine of the evening. A neighbor has experienced something very similar with some 2000 Chevalier-Montrachet from Colin Deléger.
I can only infer one of two explanations: Either oxidation is reversible, or else the symptoms of oxidation that seem compelling are in fact something else. Those with a better grounding in chemistry than I suggest that the conversion of ethanol to acetaldehyde is not reversible-but perhaps the oxidation of flavonoids can be. Certainly all winemakers have experience of detecting some oxidation in barrel or tank and reversing it with a judicious dose of sulfur.
In the article, he’s interested in this seemingly faux oxidation, and doesn’t claim that genuine oxidation is reversible.
Which goes to my point. If that’s what it is, then a vast majority should get better, not just a small handful.
We seem to want to explain all wine things by pure unequivocal science - sorry, folks - not gonna happen.
I’m sure we’ve all had wines that either should have been dead or appeared so upon opening and were drop dead gorgeous - or bottles that should have been awesome that were simply bleh . . .
These are the things that keep me going . . .
Cheers.
I not sure I understand what your point is. I don’t see where Morris has said that only a small portion of the bottles get better. His theory is that the issue, whatever it is, goes away over time. In other words, the problem is that we’ve all been too impatient. And that what we call premature oxidation isn’t oxidation at all.
If it’s not oxidation, why has adding sulfur (an anti-oxidant) fixed the issue in some domaines? And why have Diam and screwcaps that prevent oxidation prevented the problem? I call bullshit on his theory.
I don’t know any domain where adding sulfur has “fixed” the issue.
I think Jasper is focusing on the faux oxidation phenomenon that most any of us have experienced who drink white burgs. this was a major topic of discussion 4-5 years ago when tanzer was bringing it up. But it becomes quite obvious after 1/2-1 hour of air which way a wine is going to go, and if you focus intensely on the wine, it doesn’t really have the hallmarks of true oxidation.
So for a while we all dutifully would leave our oxidized bottles to get several hours of air, even overnight, to be sure we we’re mis-identifiying them. But over time we learned that these bottles exist, but at least for me constitute perhaps constitute at most 5% of the seemingly oxidized bottles. the rest are just pre-moxed and get worse and worse with air.
For me this is an outdated and old topic that most of us have moved beyond. I’m surprised that Jasper is still stuck on it. (I wonder if he is drinking more pristine bottles in terms of provenance and that his curve of the phenomenon that we know of is delayed by several years).
Fermentation is a reductive process, as is malolactic, that quite literally “un-oxidizes” juice. I intentionally oxidize the white juice for our wines every year and during fermentation they move reductively back to a very fresh state.
That’s not really what this thread is relating too, but oxidation can be undone. It does not really leave you a “new” apple, just a fresh one.
No - That is very clearly not what he is saying at all. Did you listen to the interview? He notes that phenomenon and says that it is rare. Jasper is talking about wines under cork. He is saying that wines under cork go through a phase that mimics oxidation. If you open it while it’s going through that phase then it is dead (most likely - he allows for the rare situation in which it reverses as you describe). But if you wait, and the cork is sound, then the phase mimicking oxidation passes and you get a perfectly aged wine.
For those interested, this all starts at around the 41 minute mark of the podcast. No need to guess at what he is saying. You can just listen.