Premox and American Chardonnay

[larry_schaffer]

Premox is quite different than normal oxidation or aging of white wine. The expression is different (dried straw on the finish is the biggest tell) and the differing expression of the bottles from the same case are two of the best ways to ID the problem. I have not seen these two issues in CA Chardonnay or whites from regions other than France.

I don’t know how you’d distinguish this from the normal variation you get under cork; I would guess that most whites under bark cork would show variation after a year or two, sometimes dramatic variation. We certainly see it in a few wines we’ve imported from Italy.

Oliver,

Agree 100% . . .

Cheers

[RichardFlack]

A friend opened a 2014 Mount Eden estate Chardonnay two weeks ago. Was fantastic. Not oxidized one bit.

Still young though …

Mount Eden is one of the very few American Chardonnays that has a proven record of aging well. In good vintages, this is a 25+ year wine.

Which is why wine cabinets come with locks …

[Brent_C_l_a_y_t_o_n]

Random data point-
I opened my last 2006 Aubert Lauren last month and a couple of people thought it was oxidized. Lots of the toasty hazelnut butterscotch thing that Charlie was talking about with Kistler and it was definitely darker in color. I thought it was fine if a bit old.

[Al_Osterheld]

Premox is quite different than normal oxidation or aging of white wine. The expression is different (dried straw on the finish is the biggest tell) and the differing expression of the bottles from the same case are two of the best ways to ID the problem. I have not seen these two issues in CA Chardonnay or whites from regions other than France.

I don’t know how you’d distinguish this from the normal variation you get under cork; I would guess that most whites under bark cork would show variation after a year or two, sometimes dramatic variation. We certainly see it in a few wines we’ve imported from Italy.

Oliver,

Agree 100% . . .

Cheers

In Burgundy, there were certain producers (Matrot in Meursault comes to mind) whose wines could be lovely in the early years, but quite reliably deteriorated quickly when a certain number of years had elapsed. I don’t recall the magic number of years, but think it was something small like four or five, and it was pretty much every bottle I tasted. Fortunately, these were mostly in a particular wine shop or from other people’s cellars rather than mine.

I don’t think that’s just random cork variation, but also results from one or more aspects about the way the wine was made.

I’ve also had somewhat older bottles from other producers that were grossly oxidized, far worse than any California Chardonnay I can recall. Again, I think the closure was part of it but not the whole story.

-Al

[larry_schaffer]

I don’t know how you’d distinguish this from the normal variation you get under cork; I would guess that most whites under bark cork would show variation after a year or two, sometimes dramatic variation. We certainly see it in a few wines we’ve imported from Italy.

Oliver,

Agree 100% . . .

Cheers

In Burgundy, there were certain producers (Matrot in Meursault comes to mind) whose wines could be lovely in the early years, but quite reliably deteriorated quickly when a certain number of years had elapsed. I don’t recall the magic number of years, but think it was something small like four or five, and it was pretty much every bottle I tasted. Fortunately, these were mostly in a particular wine shop or from other people’s cellars rather than mine.

I don’t think that’s just random cork variation, but also results from one or more aspects about the way the wine was made.

I’ve also had somewhat older bottles from other producers that were grossly oxidized, far worse than any California Chardonnay I can recall. Again, I think the closure was part of it but not the whole story.

-Al

Al,

‘Deteriorated in 4-5 years’ - that might seem ‘common’ to many wrt domestic chardonnays, no?

Cheers.

[Al_Osterheld]

Oliver,

Agree 100% . . .

Cheers

In Burgundy, there were certain producers (Matrot in Meursault comes to mind) whose wines could be lovely in the early years, but quite reliably deteriorated quickly when a certain number of years had elapsed. I don’t recall the magic number of years, but think it was something small like four or five, and it was pretty much every bottle I tasted. Fortunately, these were mostly in a particular wine shop or from other people’s cellars rather than mine.

I don’t think that’s just random cork variation, but also results from one or more aspects about the way the wine was made.

I’ve also had somewhat older bottles from other producers that were grossly oxidized, far worse than any California Chardonnay I can recall. Again, I think the closure was part of it but not the whole story.

-Al

Al,

‘Deteriorated in 4-5 years’ - that might seem ‘common’ to many wrt domestic chardonnays, no?

Cheers.

No, not like these. At least, not the ones I’ve been drinking. Depending on producer, they may not have improved, may not even have held well, but not oxidizing as noticeably and reliably.

-Al

[David_Bu3ker]

Oliver,

Agree 100% . . .

Cheers

In Burgundy, there were certain producers (Matrot in Meursault comes to mind) whose wines could be lovely in the early years, but quite reliably deteriorated quickly when a certain number of years had elapsed. I don’t recall the magic number of years, but think it was something small like four or five, and it was pretty much every bottle I tasted. Fortunately, these were mostly in a particular wine shop or from other people’s cellars rather than mine.

I don’t think that’s just random cork variation, but also results from one or more aspects about the way the wine was made.

I’ve also had somewhat older bottles from other producers that were grossly oxidized, far worse than any California Chardonnay I can recall. Again, I think the closure was part of it but not the whole story.

-Al

Al,

‘Deteriorated in 4-5 years’ - that might seem ‘common’ to many wrt domestic chardonnays, no?

Cheers.

“Many domestic Chardonnays”?

Are you including stuff on grocery store shelves, or are you talking about serious wines?

There is a fundamental issue here, and that is “what is pre”? Every wine eventually oxidizes. The first question is how soon should that be expected to happen, and the answer is not at all universal.

Made any Chardonnay lately Larry?

[Dan_Kravitz]

I’ve just skimmed the thread, want to answer the OP:

Mount Eden seems to get unanimous kudos here for ageworthy Chardonnay. I was appalled recently to see that I’ve swillled the Goodies and having nothing left older than 2005, which is still young.

Here is a woefully incomplete (I hope) list of California Chardonnays in addition to Mount Eden that I believe age well. I include only producers whose Chardonnays I have enjoyed at 10 years or more, in 2 or more vintages:

Domaine Eden (including the previous ‘Saratoga’ label)
Ridge
Rhys
Montelena
Mayacamas
Stony Hill
Mondavi Reserve
Thomas Fogarty
Storrs
Alfaro

Obviously slanted towards the Santa Cruz Mountains, but that’s where most of the California Chardonnay I drink comes from.

Dan Kravitz

[larry_schaffer]

In Burgundy, there were certain producers (Matrot in Meursault comes to mind) whose wines could be lovely in the early years, but quite reliably deteriorated quickly when a certain number of years had elapsed. I don’t recall the magic number of years, but think it was something small like four or five, and it was pretty much every bottle I tasted. Fortunately, these were mostly in a particular wine shop or from other people’s cellars rather than mine.

I don’t think that’s just random cork variation, but also results from one or more aspects about the way the wine was made.

I’ve also had somewhat older bottles from other producers that were grossly oxidized, far worse than any California Chardonnay I can recall. Again, I think the closure was part of it but not the whole story.

-Al

Al,

‘Deteriorated in 4-5 years’ - that might seem ‘common’ to many wrt domestic chardonnays, no?

Cheers.

“Many domestic Chardonnays”?

Are you including stuff on grocery store shelves, or are you talking about serious wines?

There is a fundamental issue here, and that is “what is pre”? Every wine eventually oxidizes. The first question is how soon should that be expected to happen, and the answer is not at all universal.

Made any Chardonnay lately Larry?

I was being sarcastic - and I was involved with making g chardonnay where I worked before. I will say we did have issues from time to time with bottles oxidizing before we thought they should. We worked to decrease the overall DO levels (dissolved oxygen) and that seemed to do the trick.

Again, I think there is a general ‘feeling’ the white burgundy should be able to age gracefully for decades as a general rule; and domestic chardonnays, in general, for years but usually not longer.

Am I wrong - in terms of perceived generalities here?

Cheers.

[David_Bu3ker]

In general I think that’s correct, and I also think it’s informed by the extremes. White Burgundy gets credit for its top examples, and California Chardonnay gets discredited for the supermarket plonk.

[larry_schaffer]

In general I think that’s correct, and I also think it’s informed by the extremes. White Burgundy gets credit for its top examples, and California Chardonnay gets discredited for the supermarket plonk.

Great points my friend.

Cheers!

[Al_Osterheld]

But, many of us cut back on aging a lot of white Burgundy.

-Al

[Dan_Sch]

Not the most experienced of the group here but have a pretty good example of US vs Burg and the different kinds of aging issues.

Had a case and a half of Breggo Savoy 2010 that I drank between 2018-19. Most were fresh and showing some mature notes. A few were clearly more advanced, but were definitely not totally shot.

The burg example is in 2020 and it’s 2012 Michel Caillot Meursault. The bottles that are good are electric, bright, beautiful and rich. 4 out of 6… the other two were dark gold with brown tinge and are fully blown, sherry notes, etc. All bottles came from the same case.

[J_a_y_H_a_c_k]

Premox is quite different than normal oxidation or aging of white wine. The expression is different (dried straw on the finish is the biggest tell) and the differing expression of the bottles from the same case are two of the best ways to ID the problem. I have not seen these two issues in CA Chardonnay or whites from regions other than France.

With all due respect for those who only like chardonnay from Burgundy, Kevin Harvey is right. I age California Chardonnay and I have yet to have a bottle that was premoxed. There was that bottle of Paul Masson Pinot Chardonnay from my sister’s wedding, but there was nothing “pre” about it.

I age my Cali chards and have never had an issue. The Kongsgaard is made in an oxidative style, and that is the only one in all of my tasting notes that reflects oxidation. I do not know how many years it takes for a pre-moxed Burg to taste Oxed and still qualify as Pre, but I have a lot of Cali Card tasting notes at 8 or more years that generally start with either “still on the upswing” or “better than the last one.”

I have a 2002 Arrowwood Chardonnay that I have been saving to see what would happen on its 20th Birthday. I expect it to be fine.

[Mel_Knox]

Larry: about not adding SO2: that’s not a bug, it’s a feature!

To Dan’s list I would add :
Au Bon Climat
Marcassin: they hold up well
Chalone, in its pre Diageo days

Re MtEden: just drank an 09 Reserve Ch that was spectacular

[John_Danza]

Had a case and a half of Breggo Savoy 2010 that I drank between 2018-19. Most were fresh and showing some mature notes. A few were clearly more advanced, but were definitely not totally shot.

I forgot about Breggo. I bought a case of the 2009 at the vineyard during a trip there. The one I opened in 2017 was outstanding. The two I opened in 2019 were oxidized and/or too old. I have two left. I better get to drinking those soon.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

Mel,

Great info but more lees apparently is NOT a good think w browning process. At least thats how I’m reading this unless you use no SO2.

Cheers

If you’re looking to oxidize the juice, why add SO2?

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

Al,

‘Deteriorated in 4-5 years’ - that might seem ‘common’ to many wrt domestic chardonnays, no?

Cheers.

“Many domestic Chardonnays”?

Are you including stuff on grocery store shelves, or are you talking about serious wines?

There is a fundamental issue here, and that is “what is pre”? Every wine eventually oxidizes. The first question is how soon should that be expected to happen, and the answer is not at all universal.

Made any Chardonnay lately Larry?

I was being sarcastic - and I was involved with making g chardonnay where I worked before. I will say we did have issues from time to time with bottles oxidizing before we thought they should. We worked to decrease the overall DO levels (dissolved oxygen) and that seemed to do the trick.

Again, I think there is a general ‘feeling’ the white burgundy should be able to age gracefully for decades as a general rule; and domestic chardonnays, in general, for years but usually not longer.

Am I wrong - in terms of perceived generalities here?

Cheers.

As a generality, and most generalities are slightly to somewhat dated, you are probably correct.

Though these days I am working on a cellaring practice based upon opening the wines when they are good…regardless of where they are from.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

Yes, virtually 100%.



Uh, well, no. It might sound counterintuitive, but actually the more reductively a wine is made, the more susceptible it is to oxidation. If a wine is protected from oxygen from the crush all the way to the bottling, it is in all likelihood going to be a fruity wine suited for early drinking. That’s why many early-drinking Pinot Grigios and Sauvignon Blancs get flat only in a couple of years.

If oxygen is introduced during the aging process in a slow, controlled manner, the more oxygen a wine gets at this point, the more protected it is going to be against oxidation after it is bottled. For example, in must hyperoxidation (a process traditionally in use at least in Burgundy with Chardonnay and in Germany with Riesling), the freshly obtained must is left to oxidize before fermentation so that the must turns yellow to dark brown as all the compounds that are very prone to oxidation, oxidize. Then they drop out of the solution and the end result is clear must from which the easily oxidized compounds are oxidized and removed. Wines made with this method are much better protected against oxidation than wines made in stainless steel tanks in the absence of oxygen, as they don’t contain those rapidly oxidizing compounds. They might lose some obvious primary fruit qualities in the process, but if the wine is supposed to last 10 years and longer, that really doesn’t matter, now does it?

Furthermore, lees bind oxygen, so it is far from impossible to make wines reductively in a barrel. All you have to do is to have more lees in the barrel than what the oxygen ingress through the oak is. The newer the barrel, the larger the oxygen ingress and the more lees are required to keep the environment reductive. However, some oxygen always gets through, but this is only good for the wine - slow, controlled oxidation during élevage is not going to oxidize the wine, just protect it against further oxidation further down the line.

This is also the reason how old school Nebbiolos are so damn ageworthy. Aging the wines in large botti casks for 3-5 years doesn’t really oxidize the wines, it only helps them to not oxidize. However, you really can’t do the same trick with new barriques - there the oxygen ingress is going to be too fast and there’s going to be too much for it: a good wine that can handle the oxygen can be aged for like 18-24 months, but three years is pushing it and 5 years in a new barrique will most likely result in rather obvious oxidative qualities.

But you’re a winemaker, you know all this, right?

Fascinating. To a non chemist it makes sense.

In all honesty, there is still so much that we truly do not understand about the ‘cause and effect’ of winemaking styles. If hyperoxidation pre-fermentation really was a fail proof way of preventing oxidation later, wouldn’t it be the default way of making it?

I know with all of my winemaking, I keep gross lees with my whites fir about 16 months prior to bottling, in older oak and not racked. I do not hyperox pre fermentation - and these wines hold up well.

With my reds I keep the fine lees with wlthe wine in older oak barrels for up to 48 months, unracked until just before bottling. And they stay fresh for a long time.

Again, there are ‘assumptions’ stated here that are just that- until folks do A/B comparisons over and over to test.

Cheers.

Like if little balls of yarn were the fail safe way to herd cats, wouldn’t it be the default way of doing it?

I don’t think anybody in the thread said hyperoxidation was “failsafe”. Probably best to shelve the use of the word failsafe as it pertains to wine, because to my knowledge absolutely nothing in this industry is failsafe.

Hyperoxidation or macrooxidation as it was referred to in the article I first read, just supposedly aids in helping to remove some of the more easily oxidized compounds. It’s a single tool in a long journey.

And like you, I have made whites that aged well without doing that as well. Your white process sounds very similar to ours after that as well. On lees, without racking would help. So would a very cold underground cellar(that I don’t have).

Lots of options, no perfect solutions, but many ways to find a path to excellent ageworthy wines, which is probably more about the vineyard as the good cellar practices. Bad cellar practices can probably ruin the best of wines.

[Vincent_Fritzsche]

Mel,

Great info but more lees apparently is NOT a good think w browning process. At least thats how I’m reading this unless you use no SO2.

Cheers

If you’re looking to oxidize the juice, why add SO2?

I typically press white with no SO2 but then add approx 30ppm at the end, let the juice settle for a couple days without taking off, it’s very brown, then into barrels for 10-18 months, usually no SO2 until bottling. In my mind, I add at the end of pressing to have allowed browning but then to slot the juice on a good fermentation track. None of that SO2 is detectable post primary, either metabolized out or perhaps settled out. So that’s why I add SO2 even when I’m looking to brown the juice.