wait . . . you received 1500ml for every 375ml that you purchased??
Thatâs how I read itâŚ
Time to start buying 375s on pre-arrival from PC! ![[snort.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/b/bdc3944606213c4dca6c1169cf0a166c8bc4f8c9.gif "snort.gif"){kind=small}
Oops, minor omission there (now corrected in post): I received 1500ml for every 1125ml ordered.
ohgeeznotthisstuffagain.jpg
Anyone with a trivial grasp of math, finance, and probability knows not to buy from these clowns. Chances are you will not save money in the long run.
Itâs been a long run and good run for me. And I have a good grasp of those concepts
Iâve had great experiences with PC. No one comes close to their sale prices. I understand the risk and take it into account when purchasing.
Anyone care to quantify âthe riskâ, e. g., âI paid $10,000 for 100 bottles, but I received only 96, so I lost 4% â except that the replacement cost at delivery of the remaining 96 was $11,000, but I could have invested the $10,000 in the stock market and made $XX,XXX as of the delivery dateâ?
I am the great Karnak. And I have a prediction.
Today is Sept 18, 2014, and I Predict that Premier Cru will declare Bankruptcy on Friday Jan 8th, 2016. Further, when they do this, there will be only around $7mm of assets and $70mm of liabilities.
And, Further, in about a year, a Messiah named Paul will come to this board. While his style will bother many, listen to him. Listen⌠ListenâŚ
And finally I predict that a man named Klapp will tell all who will listen that he knows more than everyone about every topic under the sun. Actually this is not much of a prediction, more extrapolation, as heâs doing this both in the past and right now (and, Iâm sure, in the future)
Hereâs my history of ordering from PC since 2003 with prices and quantities. Only once have I ordered a wine that did not get shipped to me and that was 24 bottles of 2005 Dominique Laurent Fixin. I got a case of each of the 2006 Laurent Mazis and Charmes Chambertin to make up for the non shipment, although I think I paid a bit extra for the trade. This list does include things that I have paid for and not received.
2009 Cote Rotie Brune et Blonde Magnum, Guigal, 1.5 L $75.00 12
lâApotre Extra Brut Blanc de Blancs (06), Leclapart, 750 ml $69.99 2
2010 Pommard Jarollieres, Pousse dâOr, 750 ml $49.99 12
2010 Volnay Clos dâAudignac, Pousse dâOr, 750 ml $49.99 12
lâArtiste Extra Brut Blanc de Blancs (07), Leclapart, 750 ml $69.99 2
2010 dâIssan, 750 ml $49.99 12
2010 Rauzan Segla, 750 ml $69.99 12
2011 Chassagne La Romanee, Jadot, 750 ml $49.99 10
2008 Ermitage Meal Rouge, Chapoutier, 750 ml $49.99 36
2008 Cote Rotie Mordoree, Chapoutier, 750 ml $29.99 36
2005 Volnay Santenots Cuvee Jehan de Massol Hospices de Beaune, Jadot, 750 ml $39.99 12
2011 Chablis les Clos, Fevre, 750 ml $45.00 12
2011 Chablis Preuses, Fevre, 750 ml $45.00 12
2008 Charmes Chambertin, Raphet, 750 ml $39.99 24
2010 Clos Vougeot, Boillot, 750 ml $69.99 12
2010 Volnay Caillerets Ancienne Cuvee Carnot, Bouchard, 750 ml $39.99 12
2009 Volnay Clos des Chenes, Bitouzet-Prieur, 750 ml $39.99 12
2010 Gevrey Combes Aux Moines, Faiveley, 750 ml $39.99 12
2009 Beaune Clos des Ursules, Jadot, 750 ml $39.99 12
2010 Volnay Chevrets, Boillot, 750 ml $39.99 12
2009 Crozes Hermitage Thalabert, Jaboulet, 750 ml $34.99 38
2008 Corton, Bouchard, 750 ml $59.99 24
2009 Nuits Murgers, Hudelot Noellat, 750 ml $35.99 12
2008 Nuits Boudots, Chezeaux, 750 ml $24.99 24
Paul Bara Grand Reserve Rose Grand Cru, 750 ml $26.99 23
2008 Volnay Caillerets Ancienne Cuvee Carnot, Bouchard, 750 ml $39.99 36
2008 Gevrey Cazetiers, Bouchard, 750 ml $69.99 12
2009 Hermitage Marquis de la Tourette, Delas, 750 ml $59.99 12
2009 Volnay Caillerets, Pousse dâOr, 750 ml $49.99 12
2009 Bernkasteler Badstube Kabinett, JJ Prum, 750 ml $16.99 21
2009 Graacher Himmelreich Kabinett, JJ Prum, 750 ml $16.99 27
2009 Clos de la Roche, Lucie & August Lignier, 750 ml $139.99 12
2009 Kirwan 1/2, 375 ml $19.99 18
2009 Gloria 1/2, 375 ml $14.99 48
2009 dâArmailhac, 750 ml $29.99 48
2009 Branaire Ducru, 750 ml $49.99 12
2009 Malartic Lagraviere, 750 ml $39.99 48
2009 Clerc Milon, 750 ml $29.99 48
Pehu-Simonet Brut Rose, 750 ml $29.99 24
Pehu-Simonet Selection Brut Grand Cru, 750 ml $27.99 24
Chiquet Brut Blanc de Blancs dâAy Grand Cru, 750 ml $24.99 24
Pehu-Simonet Cuvee Transparence Brut de Brut, 750 ml $28.99 24
2002 Chiquet Brut 1er Cru, 750 ml $36.99 24
2004 Milan Terres de Noel Blanc de Blancs, 750 ml $39.99 15
Pehu-Simonet Cuvee Transparence Brut de Brut, 750 ml $24.99 12
2000 Chiquet Special Club, 750 ml $29.99 9
Milan Special Brut Blanc de Blancs Grand Cru, 750 ml $24.99 12
Chiquet Brut Blanc de Blancs dâAy Grand Cru, 750 ml $25.99 24
2002 Chiquet Brut 1er Cru, 750 ml $29.99 12
2005 Aubry Le Nombre dâOr Sable Brut Blanc des Blancs, 750 ml $39.99 24
2004 Larmandier-Bernier VV de Cramant Grand Cru Extra Brut Blanc de Blancs, 750 ml $49.99 12
Hebrart Brut Blanc de Blancs 1er Cru, 750 ml $24.99 24
2005 Milan Symphorine Brut Blanc de Blancs Grand Cru, 750 ml $29.99 24
2009 Grand Puy Lacoste, 750 ml $55.00 48
2005 Beaune Clos du Roi 3 Liter, Potel, 3 L $119.99 3
2005 Volnay V.V. 3 Liter, Potel, 3 L $99.99 3
2008 Larcis Ducasse, 750 ml $49.99 12
2006 Leoville Poyferre, 750 ml $39.99 12
2006 Barde Haut, 750 ml $14.99 72 72
2008 Montrose, 750 ml $59.99 24
2006 Rauzan Segla, 750 ml $45.00 12
2006 Haut Bergey, 750 ml $16.99 12
2006 Larcis Ducasse, 750 ml $34.99 12
2008 Pontet Canet, 750 ml $59.99 12
2006 Lagrange, St Julien, 750 ml $29.99 12
2006 Mazis Chambertin âBâ V.V., Laurent, 750 ml $49.99 12
2006 Charmes Chambertin V.V., Laurent, 750 ml $46.99 12
Billecart Salmon Rose, 750 ml $49.99 12
2005 Clos de la Roche, Lignier, 750 ml $199.99
2005 Beaune Greves Magnum, Potel, 1.5 L $69.99 6
2005 Clos St Denis, JP Magnien, 750 ml $49.99 24
2005 Gevrey Champeaux, Tortochot, 750 ml $45.00 12
2005 Clos Vougeot, Tortochot, 750 ml $75.00 12
2005 Charmes Chambertin, Tortochot, 750 ml $69.95 12
2004 Brauneberger Juffer Sonnenuhr GK Auslese #9, F. Haag, 750 ml $39.99 12
2004 Clos Vougeot, Gros Freres, 750 ml $45.00 12
2004 Nuits Porrets St George, Faiveley, 750 ml $25.00 12 1
2004 Mazis Chambertin Cuvee B V.V., Laurent, 750 ml $55.00 12
2003 Urziger Wurzgarten Auslese***, JJ Christoffel, 750 ml $15.99 48
2001 Meursault, H. Boillot, 750 ml $19.95 12
2004 Nuits Bousselots, Chevillon, 750 ml $25.99 48
2002 Corton Renardes, Girardin, 750 ml $31.99 12
2002 Nuits Aux Perdrix, Domaine des Perdrix, 750 ml $34.99 12
2000 Cote Rotie La Landonne, Rostaing, 750 ml $34.99 12
2000 Cote Rotie, Rostaing, 750 ml $14.99 12
1998 Nenin, 750 ml $35.99 16
2002 Ermitage Rouge Le Meal, Chapoutier, 750 ml $39.95 12
2002 Ermitage Rouge Le Pavillon, Chapoutier, 750 ml $49.95 12
2002 St. Joseph Blanc Les Granits Magnum, Chapoutier, 1.5 L $29.95 10
2002 Cote Rotie La Mordoree Magnum, Chapoutier, 1.5 L $59.95 6
2002 St. Joseph Rouge Granits Magnum, Chapoutier, 1.5 L $29.95 6
2002 Cote Rotie La Mordoree Magnum, Chapoutier, 1.5 L $59.95 12
2002 St. Joseph Rouge Granits Magnum, Chapoutier, 1.5 L $29.95 12
2001 Hermitage, Tardieu Laurent, 750 ml $45.00 16
1988 Corton Dr Peste Hospices de Beaune, 750 ml $35.00 4
1988 Corton Charlotte Dumay Hospices de Beaune, 750 ml $35.00 4
2002 Echezeaux V.V., Girardin, 750 ml $49.95 48
2001 Clos Vougeot, Gros Freres et Soeur, 750 ml $33.99 27
1995 Latour Mags, 1.5 L $325.00 1
2002 Meursault Genevrieres Hospices, Colin Deleger, 750 ml $49.95 12
2001 Puligny Referts, Sauzet, 750 ml $34.99 2
2001 Puligny Folatieres, Sauzet, 750 ml $45.00 7
1998 Nuits Hospices Cuvee Georges Faiveley, Gambal, 750 ml $14.99 1
1998 Numanthia Toro, 750 ml $45.00 6
1999 Numanthia Toro, 750 ml $45.00 6
2000 Cote Rotie Grandes Places, Gerin, 750 ml $39.95 6
1999 Barbaresco Santo Stefano, Giacosa, 750 ml $45.00 24
1999 Cornas Coteaux, Tardieu Laurent, 750 ml $14.99 12
1995 Tokay Clos Winds 1/2s, Zind Humbrecht, 375 ml $14.99 6
2001 Morey Chaffots, Michel Magnien, 750 ml $28.99 12
1998 Vosne Beauxmonts, Laurent, 750 ml $17.99 11
1997 Nuits Richemone, Laurent, 750 ml $19.99 13
1997 Nuits Pruliers, Laurent, 750 ml $19.99 6
1999 Mazis Hospices Madeleine Collignon, Roux, 750 ml $39.95
1995 Latricieres, Trapet, 750 ml $29.95 11
2000 Batard Montrachet, Colin Deleger, 750 ml $79.95 6
1999 Nuits Pruliers, Laurent, 750 ml $29.99 12
2002 Chassagne Maltroie, Colin Deleger, 750 ml $24.99 36
1992 Laurel Glen Cab, 750 ml $49.95 2
1990 Laurel Glen Cabernet, 750 ml $49.95 2
1991 Laurel Glen Cabernet, 750 ml $49.50 3
1990 Bollinger RD, 750 ml $95.00 2
1996 Corton Hospices, Laurent, 750 ml $39.95 12
1999 Quinault lâEnclos, 750 ml $39.95 36
1995 Nuits Les St. Georges Magnum, D. Mugn, 1.5 L $59.95 2
1996 Clinet (damaged capsule), 750 ml $39.95 24
1996 Troplong Mondot, 750 ml $27.99 36
1999 Hermitage Sizeranne, Chapoutier, 750 ml $19.99 6
2000 Cote Rotie, Tardieu Laurent, 750 ml $35.00 28
2000 Cornas Coteaux, Tardieu Laurent, 750 ml $11.99 20
2000 Cotes du Rhone Guy Louis, Tardieu Laurent, 750 ml $16.99 24
2000 St. Joseph VV, Tardieu Laurent, 750 ml $14.99 23
1999 Volnay Santenots, Girardin, 750 ml $19.95 12
1997 lâHermitage, 750 ml $15.99 3
1999 Pouilly Fume Buisson Renard, Dagueneau, 750 ml $16.99 48
1995 Lynch Bages, 750 ml $55.00 4
1998 Quinault lâEnclos, 750 ml $49.95 4
1998 Clinet, 750 ml $39.95 15 15 0
2002 Chablis Valmur, Fevre, 750 ml $45.00 12
2002 Chablis les Clos, Fevre, 750 ml $49.95 12
1995 Gevrey Lavaux, R. Leclerc, 750 ml $11.99 1
1995 Corton, Jadot, 750 ml $29.95 1
1995 Nuits Pruliers, Laurent, 750 ml $19.95 0
2000 Grands Echezeaux, Laurent, 750 ml $59.95 24
1993 Gevrey Cazetiers, Leclerc, 750 ml $14.99 2
1997 Pommard Hospices, Laurent, 750 ml $19.95 24
1998 Charmes Chambertin, Girardin, 750 ml $24.99 24
1995 Gevrey Clos St. Jacques, Laurent, 750 ml $39.95 3
1995 Gevrey Brunelles, Roty, 750 ml $14.99 0
1995 Nuits Porets St. Georges, Laurent, 750 ml $19.95 1
2000 Echezeaux, Laurent, 750 ml $34.99 24
1995 Echezeaux, Laurent, 750 ml $45.00 3
1999 Clos Vougeot, D. Mugneret, 750 ml $29.95 18
1995 Pommard Refene, Laurent, 750 ml $14.99 24
1999 Clos de la Roche, Rousseau, 750 ml $49.99 24
1996 Clos lâOratoire, 750 ml $22.50 48
1995 Troplong Mondot, 750 ml $45.00 12
1997 Beaune Hospices Dames Hospitalieres, Roux, 750 ml $12.99
1996 Corton Dumay Hospices, Roux, 750 ml $35.00 12
1997 Pommard Hospices Cuvee Billardet, Roux, 750 ml $14.99
2000 Ruchottes Chambertin, Rousseau, 750 ml $55.00 24
1999 Clos Vougeot, Drouhin-Laroze, 750 ml $45.00 36
1999 Bonnes Mares, Drouhin-Laroze, 750 ml $49.95 36
1999 Clos de Beze, Drouhin-Laroze, 750 ml $49.95 48
1999 Clos Vougeot, D. Mugneret, 750 ml $45.00 12
1997 Vosne La Croix Blanche Serie Rare, Laurent, 750 ml $34.99 10
1998 Gevrey Lavaux St. Jacques Serie Rare, Laurent, 750 ml $29.95 3
1998 Gevrey Petite Chapelle Serie Rare, Laurent, 750 ml $24.99 3
1997 Vosne Champs Perdrix Serie Rare, Laurent, 750 ml $34.99 7
1999 Echezeaux, D. Mugneret, 750 ml $45.00 12
1997 Vosne Croix Ramau Serie Rare, Laurent, 750 ml $29.95 9
1998 Gevrey Poissenots Serie Rare, Laurent, 750 ml $29.95 3
2000 Clos de Tart Magnum, 1.5 L $119.95 12
1998 Gevrey Les Etelois Serie Rare, Laurent, 750 ml $19.95 1
2001 Puligny Folatieres, H. Boillot, 750 ml $29.95 12 1
2000 Chassagne Vergers, Colin Deleger, 750 ml $29.95 12
2000 Nuits Chaignots, Chevillon, 750 ml $24.99 19
2000 Nuits Roncieres, Chevillon, 750 ml $24.99 22
1999 Chablis Fourchaume Voulorent, Fevre, 750 ml $19.95 12
2000 Nuits Perrieres, Chevillon, 750 ml $24.99 22
1998 Barbaresco Costa Russi, Gaja, 750 ml $133.00 15
1998 Barbaresco Sori Tildin, Gaja, 750 ml $133.00 14
1998 Barbaresco Sori San Lorenzo, Gaja, 750 ml $133.00 7
1996 Clinet (damaged capsule), 750 ml $39.95 12
1998 Beausejour Becot, 750 ml $34.99 12
1990 Bollinger RD, 750 ml $95.00 6
It does seem like their performance has been dropping a bit as of late. I have paid for approximately 23 cases of wine that have not been delivered. My last delivery was a year ago and of the 23 cases, only three are ready to ship (and one of those was an in stock item). The recent pricing is not quite as attractive (at least to me) as it was in the past and between that and the fact that items are a bit slow(er) showing up, I have limited my PC purchases as of late. That being said, Iâm very happy with my ârelationshipâ with Premier Cru. I think you can see why. Every bottle I have received from PC has been in perfect condition. I have yet to receive my 2006 Rauzan Segla or my 2008 Montrose and Pontet Canet (which doesnât make any sense to me), but Iâm not overly concerned.
I know this is a bit too factual to post here as it has little to do with my opinion of their business model, but I would be happy to buy an unlimited quantity of almost ( Iâm looking at you, Numanthia and Billecart Rose) any of the things that I have ordered from them at the prices I have paid.
In answer to the question posed, I have no idea why they take so long but i donât really care.
It doesnât make it better, but itâs good to know I am not the only waiting for 2008 Pontet Canet. Add to that 2008 Yquem and 2008 Dujac Clos St. Denis, my buying has dropped off significantly, but I still get sucked in on occasion, especially with Champagne.
I received my 2008 Pontet Canet and Montrose a little over a year ago from PC.
Iâm not sure if that makes me feel better or worse.
Good post Doug, that really sums up the situation nicely and answers those who say âanyone who knows anything would never buy here.â
I agree that things seem to be getting a bit slower and that the deals have not seemed quite as attractive, or rather that there are still a few very good deals but the overall value on offer has lagged a bit.
Iâve been thinking about it a bit more, and I think the secret to their business model is as follows.
(1) I think itâs fairly obvious that they are using money from todayâs futures purchases to acquire the wine to satisfy yesterdayâs (er, 5 years agoâs) futures purchases
(2) This is not illegal in a retail context - thereâs no rule that they have to earmark your funds for your wine. Calling it a Ponzi scheme is both vaguely accurate and also misleading, in that plenty of businesses rely on continued revenue growth to finance themselves.
(3) The reason that PCâs model is particularly robust is that when their revenues decline - i.e, when the market for fine wine declines - the prices for the bottles that they need to track down to satisfy existing orders also declines.
(4) So, even in a âdownâ market, while their revenues go down, they need less revenue in order to keep the pyramid standing. Additionally, because they have no obligation to deliver at any given time, they can stretch acquisition of wine (and deliveries) to conserve cash.
2003, 2003 !!!
Where for art Thou ???
Ned, why donât you just tell them that you are unhappy with the wait and that you want something of comparable value and interest? I suspect theyâll make it right based upon what others have said here.
I donât think this is obvious at all. I have no idea what funds they are using to acquire yesterdayâs purchases and I donât think you do either. Iâm hoping it is the money they collected to pay for these wines.
Itâs extraordinarily unlikely that they donât use current cash to pay for current bills coming due since this is what businesses do. That means the pre-arrivals you buy today do in fact pay for the shipments coming in today. Although some futures are actually bought with cash upfront, this is the exception rather than the rule. Bankruptcy occurs when you canât pay your bills, which in wine means you donât have sufficient income to pay for new stockâamong other expenses.
If this is true for PC, it would explain the random 35% off sales that we see more frequently now. [Warning: optimism ahead] That must mean more of my wine is in! ![[drinkers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/8/82916bed5ad74ac8470bc04089d9758b0c80c9fa.gif "drinkers"){kind=small}
When you suggest a time frame that long, the implication is that the business is essentially insolvent and that any interruption in new sales will take the business down â that itâs at the least a check-kiting scheme.
As a bankruptcy lawyer, you know thereâs all the difference in the world between that and using income from the sale of futures to provide part of your working capital on a shorter term basis. If they were carrying (to cite your example) five years of obligations with no reserves or actual purchases of wine to satisfy the orders, I think the music would have stopped at some point (e.g., the recession of the early 90s, the dotcom collapse, which hit the Bay Area hard, or the more recent financial crisis) and customers would have been stiffed and received nothing â not offered wines of equivalent or greater value.