Now we know why producers won’t change to screw tops.
Combination of escalating prices and inconsistency of the wine quality. To me, the value proposition declined even before these unproven closures.
It’s one thing to say a closure will allow in 100 ppm of oxygen in 10 years based on testing when they are new. It’s another thing entirely to show that it actually does that 10 years out.
Kenney - assuming the corks themselves are taste-neutral, tasting the wines young still wouldn’t shed any light on how well the closures will work 10-20 years out.
I’m curious: would those of you who plan to stop buying because of the switch to synthetics feel the same way if the switch had been to screw caps?
I would feel better about it. Having opened some decade-old red wines under screw cap, I’m mostly okay with it, albeit based on a limited sample size.
[/quote]
Combination of escalating prices and inconsistency of the wine quality. To me, the value proposition declined even before these unproven closures.[/quote]
In my opinion, the last few years Ponsot is throwing out one brilliant wine/vintage after another. The recent string of successes in 08, 09, 10 and what I hear also 2011 is not comparable to the wines produced during the early 2000s.
So the inconsistency point I debate. The escalating prices… hard to argue against that, but that is the case for most Burgundy wines these days. That said, compared to some others I do not think that Ponsot is outrageously priced for the quality you get. Fwiw: does not mean that I think they are cheap though…
On the corks: I am a believer. All the recent wines I have tasted were brilliant, not a single bad bottle amongst them. As the Brittons always say: the proof of the pudding is in the eating… so we will only know for sure 15 to 20 years from now.
They are unproven closures indeed, but natural corks can then be said to be closures with proven defects (occassionally)…
I applaud Ponsot for refusing to accept that natural cork is as good as it gets, and accepting the obvious shortcomings of that closure (again, in a limited number of cases as most quality corks do actually perform well over time).
The most interesting thing for me however, is the question whether the wines will be fresher and more lively after 20 years under the new Ponsot cork? If you see one of these old corks, you wonder what kind of taste that cork has given to the wine (and I do not mean ‘corked’ as that would be a defect) but more general just a tiny bit of taste that the cork has passed on to the wine as cork is not odourless / without taste. So it must pass some of that on to the wine. The synthetic corks should not have this effect.
YES !
I don´t doubt that the wine is “OK”.
The question for me is: will it AGE properly ??? ![[scratch.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/4/42a16863a8714da3c1604419e3eb9206bb87aa50.gif "scratch"){kind=small}
The wine evolves. I do think you may lose some of the tertiary nuances of the wine that you get under cork, but if you want “guarantees” about your closure…
For me the question is that wine under synthetic cork has often aged catastrophically, if those results can even be called “aging.” I have not seen such utter failures with screwcaps.
i´m with Gerhard here - if i want guarantees I´ll drink Beer or Coca-Cola.
If a cork isn´t TCA-infected the differences are rarely huge due to the cork - much more due to bad storage or handling.
Hi Robert,
The aging differences I’m talking about are between the same wine under screwcap or cork. I have a couple of times tasted wines purchased at the same time and stored side-by-side under both closures and there is a subtle difference - or at least I found one. I have seen other people make arguments that something is lost in mature wine because the miniscule amount of oxygen transfer allowed by a cork is part of the aging process. Whether that loss is a part of Gerhard’s “age properly” is, of course, up to him.
The question was, however, would I be more comfortable with screwcap instead of synthetic. To me, the difference between losing some nuance versus wines dying in the bottle after several years beggars comparison.
So, while I currently prefer cork, I would not stop buying a producer I loved that switched over to screwcap. I have stopped buying producers that use synthetic until I see enough evidence that suggests wines will not collapse under them.
Perhaps this seems a miniscule aspect for an expensive GC Burg, but if I am giving up the tradition, at least give me the convenience and security.
Just out of curiosity guys, given all that is written above, would you buy the 2009 Domaine Leroy wines without any concerns about ageing?
Why, are they using the same corks?
Well, I have a couple of them and recently drank a Domaine Leroy 2009 Vosne Romanee les Beaux Monts (see other post on this board) and she seals her bottles with a thick layer of wax…
So according to some of the posts in this thread that should really be the worst right? You have a closure that does not “breathe”, so according to some there will be issues with ageing and on top of that you still run the risk of TCA / a corked bottle…
She might have just as well used a synthetic cork then? No risk of the bottle being corked and still allows for some air to flow?
Still I trust that she knows what she is doing… I mean, it is Domaine Leroy we are talking about and it doesn’t get much better than that?
Also Sine Qua Non uses wax sealings…
Ponsot, Sine Qua Non, Domaine Leroy… only thing I can think of they have in common is that they spare no expenses or efforts when it comes to quality… and they feel comfortable with having a closure that either entirely blocks airflow or only has very limited flow…
Also, a lot of double magnums or larger formats are sealed with wax, do we have same concerns about ageing there?
sorry, but I believe it is well established that the wax does nothing but provide another type of capsule; it does not prevent oxygen penetration.
alan
Well, looking at that thick layer of wax that was on that 09 I opened, I could hardly believe that allowed for oxygen penetration…
I do actually think that is factually incorrect. It is well established that the wax severely limits oxygen penetration, maybe not completely blocks it, but substantially reduces it. So it is not just another type of capsule like eg the aluminium.
And if it does that, I fail to see the difference with the Ponsot cork (or at least the oxygen features of the Ponsot cork).
It is also exactly the reason why a lot of top white Burgundy producers (D’Auvenay, PYCM, Arnaud Ente) apply a wax sealing (to prevent premox?).
I think the wax that Raveneau/Dunn/etc uses is a combination of wax and shellac, which I believe had some effect in reducing oxygen (some, but not completely preventing).
Just for clarification by the way, the Ponsot corks do allow for oxygen penetration, and depending on the specifications the domaine provides to the cork producer, it is manufactured that it allows for exactly that level of oxygen penetration…
The issue isn’t simply oxygen penetration.
-
Even with a wax capsule it is still a cork closure. So cork is in contact with wine vs synthetic in contact with wine. Alcohol is a solvent. Do we know if after 10 or 20 or 30 years that the synthetic won’t react with the alcohol?
-
Someone mentioned that synthetic corks loose elasticity with time (not these) and thus no longer provide a tight seal leading to failure. We don’t know if this will or will not be the case with the Ponsot synthetics.
-
Corks with and without wax capsules have a longer track record than these Ponsot synthetics.
It’s not an equivalent comparison.