[Poll] Who has the better $20-30 wines? Oregon or Burgundy?

[David_Bu3ker]

Nothing more to tell. I perceive a hint of aspartame in most US Pinot Noirs in the under-$40 range. I don’t know why I taste it; I don’t know if there’s an actual additive (Mega-Red or Mega-Purple, or something else) or not that causes it; I don’t even know if I’m crazy or not. I’m just relaying my experience and won’t be baited into an argument over opinions, which seems to be all the rage here.

Sounds a lot like what some refer to as a “confected” note to the fruit.

[Robert_Dentice]

If you are talking about Pinot specifically the answer is Germany!

Spatbürgunder in Germany has improved dramatically in the last 3-5 years an in particular at this price point.

To answer the original question I would give it to Oregon however if you were to include Beaujolais then it would be a more difficult question.

[Richard_T_r_i_m_p_i]

Nothing more to tell. I perceive a hint of aspartame in most US Pinot Noirs in the under-$40 range. I don’t know why I taste it; I don’t know if there’s an actual additive (Mega-Red or Mega-Purple, or something else) or not that causes it; I don’t even know if I’m crazy or not. I’m just relaying my experience and won’t be baited into an argument over opinions, which seems to be all the rage here.

You’ve confirmed this impression by blind tasting? Including wines made by Burgundy producers using Oregon fruit? Which US Pinots, costing more than $40 don’t you taste it in? Have you tried any of the Oregon Pinots made by regulars in the Berserker community: i.e.: Goodfellow, PGC, Biggio-Hamina, Longplay, Vincent, Johan, Walter Scott? Please trust me (and them), these guys aren’t using additives. Perhaps some Jesus units.

I don’t think you’re crazy. I think you have biased expectations. Ripe fruit can provide a perception of sweetness which used to be a “tell” in blind Pinot tastings, particularly for differentiating Burgundy. Having put it to the test a few times, my experience is that it’s a moving target with more grey than black and white. But confident blind tasters persist. I doubt you’ll see Allen Meadows or other professional critics doing much blind Pinot tasting in public.

RT

[Michae1_P0wers]

[*]

Most Oregon Pinot Noir has a taste of artificial sweetener that kills the enjoyment.

I didn’t realize this. Tell me more.

RT

Nothing more to tell. I perceive a hint of aspartame in most US Pinot Noirs in the under-$40 range. I don’t know why I taste it; I don’t know if there’s an actual additive (Mega-Red or Mega-Purple, or something else) or not that causes it; I don’t even know if I’m crazy or not. I’m just relaying my experience and won’t be baited into an argument over opinions, which seems to be all the rage here.

I don’t know which wines you’ve tried, and am not trying to argue about it, but I really doubt the better Oregon producers, several of whom participate here, are using any of that type of additives in their wines. I will say that Oregon has had a run of warmer vintages in the past few years, and that has produced a somewhat riper style. Personal taste is what it is, so obviously if there’s something you dislike in it that’s how it is for you, but that doesn’t mean it’s additives. I have had really poor luck with German Spatburgunder. I always find a really prevalent brown spice note (for lack of a better descriptive term) and have seen others mention similar experience. This goes for some of the better-liked producers as well, such as Enderle and Moll (whose whites I really like) and Rings.

[Richard_T_r_i_m_p_i]

Perhaps you need to read the newsletter that you, Ron and Dennis are writing.

Hey…that looks like a bottle of Thomas in the Greg Malcolm rack. He won’t even notice!

RT

[Robert_Dentice]

Nothing more to tell. I perceive a hint of aspartame in most US Pinot Noirs in the under-$40 range. I don’t know why I taste it; I don’t know if there’s an actual additive (Mega-Red or Mega-Purple, or something else) or not that causes it; I don’t even know if I’m crazy or not. I’m just relaying my experience and won’t be baited into an argument over opinions, which seems to be all the rage here.

You’ve confirmed this impression by blind tasting? Including wines made by Burgundy producers using Oregon fruit? Which US Pinots, costing more than $40 don’t you taste it in? Have you tried any of the Oregon Pinots made by regulars in the Berserker community: i.e.: Goodfellow, PGC, Biggio-Hamina, Longplay, Vincent, Johan, Walter Scott? Please trust me (and them), these guys aren’t using additives. Perhaps some Jesus units.

I don’t think you’re crazy. I think you have biased expectations. Ripe fruit can provide a perception of sweetness which used to be a “tell” in blind Pinot tastings, particularly for differentiating Burgundy. Having put it to the test a few times, my experience is that it’s a moving target with more grey than black and white. But confident blind tasters persist. I doubt you’ll see Allen Meadows or other professional critics doing much blind Pinot tasting in public.

RT

What about if it is actually part of the Terroir? I once brought a U.S. Pinot to a tasting with a group of French wine professionals, it was around 12% one of the early single vineyard Rhys and all said it was too sweet. And it was served blind!

[Robert_Dentice]

I have had really poor luck with German Spatburgunder. I always find a really prevalent brown spice note (for lack of a better descriptive term) and have seen others mention similar experience. This goes for some of the better-liked producers as well, such as Enderle and Moll (whose whites I really like) and Rings.

I understand and agree that it has been difficult finding Spatbürgunder in the past. If you can find this wine please try it as this is the future. Around $30-35 in NY. If you don’t like I will refund your money!

[Mattstolz]

Drouhin (specifically for red: Côte de Beaune and Côte de Nuits, for white: Vaudon) Charles Audoin, Hudelot-Nöellat, and Nicolas Potel easily put Burgundy ahead of Oregon in the value department. Most Oregon Pinot Noir has a taste of artificial sweetener that kills the enjoyment.

Ive yet to actually be able to track down Hudelot-noellat or Potel Bourgogne (im assuming Bourgogne in this price range) locally, and by time I ship them then I think they typically are back above the price range again. But I have been looking because I think if some bottles have the ability to sway me those are probably the most convincing. Maybe someday somewhere with free shipping or a local store will carry them!

If you are talking about Pinot specifically the answer is Germany!

Spatbürgunder in Germany has improved dramatically in the last 3-5 years an in particular at this price point.

To answer the original question I would give it to Oregon however if you were to include Beaujolais then it would be a more difficult question.

I’m with Michael above on this in that I’ve never had great luck with Spatburgunders. Ive tried a few that ive seen positive notes on and just never been blown away.

What about if it is actually part of the Terroir? I once brought a U.S. Pinot to a tasting with a group of French wine professionals, it was around 12% one of the early single vineyard Rhys and all said it was too sweet. And it was served blind!

I don’t think that is part of the terrior, but the sweeter riper style is definitely part of the style of a large handful of US pinot producers. Moreso in California I would say, but I can think of a good group in Oregon too. for the record, I would say those producers (belle glos, eluon, domaine serene, etc) are not really showing typicity for Oregon pinot but moreso for international/modern red style in general. would you mind sharing some of the producers that you’ve felt have been sweeter?

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

I think the best way to test this out is to try some wines from both regions in this price range. For burgundies, try Bourgogne rouge from Hudelot-Noellat, Jouan, Juillot or Domaine des Moirots; Chorey les Beaune from Dublere or Drouhin or Mercury from Faiveley.

I think that would be fun. I generally enjoy your first three producers, and think they deliver pretty good value.

For Oregon, Evesham Wood, Patricia Green, Goodfellow(my wine, but value has always been a priority for me), Walter Scott, Vincent, Belle Pente, Hundred Suns, or Martin-Wood.

Although in general, I think that the 80% of less than stellar producers need to be accounted for as well. Low end Burgundy as a whole, can definitely struggle with quality. And Oregon has so many new producers lacking significant experience, along with no shortage of wines with more fruit than spine.

Still, it would be fun to go head to head.

[Richard_T_r_i_m_p_i]

I never was a fan of early Rhys/Alesia despite the hype. I tasted about 15+ different bottlings/vintages before encountering one that I thought approached “Burgundian”. On average, CA and ripe vintage OR Pinot will taste sweeter than Burgundy. There seem to be an ever increasing number of exceptions to the rule. Depending on the CA, OR and Burg producers, you should be very careful before betting the farm on a blind tasting.

RT

[Richard_T_r_i_m_p_i]

I understand and agree that it has been difficult finding Spatbürgunder in the past. If you can find this wine please try it as this is the future. Around $30-35 in NY. If you don’t like I will refund your money!

Robert, I agree that Spatburgunder has been turning the corner. Value was a question in the past, but quality has been improving.

RT

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

[*]

Most Oregon Pinot Noir has a taste of artificial sweetener that kills the enjoyment.

I didn’t realize this. Tell me more.

RT

Nothing more to tell. I perceive a hint of aspartame in most US Pinot Noirs in the under-$40 range. I don’t know why I taste it; I don’t know if there’s an actual additive (Mega-Red or Mega-Purple, or something else) or not that causes it; I don’t even know if I’m crazy or not. I’m just relaying my experience and won’t be baited into an argument over opinions, which seems to be all the rage here.

Could you put some specific names to this?

I don’t honestly think Mega-Purple would translate to aspartame. It’s a grape extract (a crappy one…my feelings on it are well documented on another thread) rather than a chemical additive.

Your palate is your palate, and most of us perceive wines differently. I won’t speak for Oregon, but of you’re tasting most of the smaller producers I listed above or any of the Deep Roots Coalition members, and feel the wines taste of aspartame, then it’s proabably something with the terroir that you are sensitive to (a la cilantro for some people) rather than a winery making additions. Most of us in the craft side, don’t really feel that the fruit needs any additional help. It’s one of the reasons that I am so proud of the wines made in the Willamette Valley.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

You’ve confirmed this impression by blind tasting? Including wines made by Burgundy producers using Oregon fruit? Which US Pinots, costing more than $40 don’t you taste it in? Have you tried any of the Oregon Pinots made by regulars in the Berserker community: i.e.: Goodfellow, PGC, Biggio-Hamina, Longplay, Vincent, Johan, Walter Scott? Please trust me (and them), these guys aren’t using additives. Perhaps some Jesus units.


RT

What about if it is actually part of the Terroir? I once brought a U.S. Pinot to a tasting with a group of French wine professionals, it was around 12% one of the early single vineyard Rhys and all said it was too sweet. And it was served blind!

A 12% alcohol wine perceived as sweet, is most likely a wine with a bit higher pH. Relatively speaking-I am in NO way suggesting Rhys is high pH for California wines, but next to Burgundy most new world producers opt for less acid and moderated tannins(there are exceptions to this statement). And there are plenty of producers in both Oregon and California with higher pHs than Rhys.

As a VERY generalized statement, I also think more new world producers view hang time as desirable. And if some hang time is good, then more is better seems to be some producers approach. For me, I think some of the flavor development from hang time adds sweetness and sacrifices savory qualities that most of the Burgundian wines I have consumed seem to hold onto(with some notable exceptions in modernized producers like Dugat-Py, Magnien, or Vincent Girardin). That said, Jim Anderson is usually a late picker and obviously the wines have plenty of edge and savory qualities…so, pick your path.

[Michae1_P0wers]

I have had really poor luck with German Spatburgunder. I always find a really prevalent brown spice note (for lack of a better descriptive term) and have seen others mention similar experience. This goes for some of the better-liked producers as well, such as Enderle and Moll (whose whites I really like) and Rings.

I understand and agree that it has been difficult finding Spatbürgunder in the past. If you can find this wine please try it as this is the future. Around $30-35 in NY. If you don’t like I will refund your money!

soilpimp on Instagram: "Germany is just so deep! A mindblowing Graubürgunder and Spätburgunder. I tasted with Wasenhaus on my last trip to Germany on the #vomboden tour and it was easily one of the most impressive tastings with a new winery I have ever experienced. Well this was the first wine stateside and it is everything I could have hoped for and more! Chef Renée said do not post until you order more (this from a devoted white wine drinker)! #grauburgunder #spätburgunderstudy #vomboden #wasenhaus"

Thanks for the tip Robert!

[AlexS]

Nothing more to tell. I perceive a hint of aspartame in most US Pinot Noirs in the under-$40 range. I don’t know why I taste it; I don’t know if there’s an actual additive (Mega-Red or Mega-Purple, or something else) or not that causes it; I don’t even know if I’m crazy or not. I’m just relaying my experience and won’t be baited into an argument over opinions, which seems to be all the rage here.

You’ve confirmed this impression by blind tasting? Including wines made by Burgundy producers using Oregon fruit? Which US Pinots, costing more than $40 don’t you taste it in? Have you tried any of the Oregon Pinots made by regulars in the Berserker community: i.e.: Goodfellow, PGC, Biggio-Hamina, Longplay, Vincent, Johan, Walter Scott? Please trust me (and them), these guys aren’t using additives. Perhaps some Jesus units.

I don’t think you’re crazy. I think you have biased expectations. Ripe fruit can provide a perception of sweetness which used to be a “tell” in blind Pinot tastings, particularly for differentiating Burgundy. Having put it to the test a few times, my experience is that it’s a moving target with more grey than black and white. But confident blind tasters persist. I doubt you’ll see Allen Meadows or other professional critics doing much blind Pinot tasting in public.

RT

Well, Ian shifted the goal posts to US Pinot at large and if that’s the case, big distro supermarket US Pinot is generally pretty confected tasting (even a few of the larger OR producers). Non-spoof, big distro US wine can be a real crap shoot nowadays, especially if you aren’t into sweet flavors and/or oak.

[Jim_Anderson]

You’ve confirmed this impression by blind tasting? Including wines made by Burgundy producers using Oregon fruit? Which US Pinots, costing more than $40 don’t you taste it in? Have you tried any of the Oregon Pinots made by regulars in the Berserker community: i.e.: Goodfellow, PGC, Biggio-Hamina, Longplay, Vincent, Johan, Walter Scott? Please trust me (and them), these guys aren’t using additives. Perhaps some Jesus units.


RT

What about if it is actually part of the Terroir? I once brought a U.S. Pinot to a tasting with a group of French wine professionals, it was around 12% one of the early single vineyard Rhys and all said it was too sweet. And it was served blind!

A 12% alcohol wine perceived as sweet, is most likely a wine with a bit higher pH. Relatively speaking-I am in NO way suggesting Rhys is high pH for California wines, but next to Burgundy most new world producers opt for less acid and moderated tannins(there are exceptions to this statement). And there are plenty of producers in both Oregon and California with higher pHs than Rhys.

As a VERY generalized statement, I also think more new world producers view hang time as desirable. And if some hang time is good, then more is better seems to be some producers approach. For me, I think some of the flavor development from hang time adds sweetness and sacrifices savory qualities that most of the Burgundian wines I have consumed seem to hold onto(with some notable exceptions in modernized producers like Dugat-Py, Magnien, or Vincent Girardin). That said, Jim Anderson is usually a late picker and obviously the wines have plenty of edge and savory qualities…so, pick your path.

Not so much these days. Especially since we re-started making Chardonnay (and you told me that if you pick when you think the fruit is ripe then you have waited too long) I have re-thought Pinot picking dates. I think I picked my first Pinot in 2018 before just about anyone (September 10th) and I couldn’t have been more than a day or two after you at Durant in terms of picking PN (we have adjacent blocks for those who don’t know). Definitely attempting to make a larger quantity of wine that fewer people will find appealing😬 (and definitely succeeded in a few efforts in 2017 and almost assuredly with some stuff in 2018-all of which happen to be among my favorites from the two vintages).

An aside since I’m being lazy, aren’t we supposed to trade some wine soon?

[PeterH]

I don’t buy $20-$30 Burgundy anymore, and very little sub $30 Oregon Pinot Noir, unless it is higher priced wine that has been discounted (or made into a Berserker cuvee). My impression from 40 years of drinking these wines can be condensed to this-

Burgundy- not enough good juice left over after the higher priced wines are made to make a significant amount of entry level wine.

Oregon- copious high quality juice that can’t be sold at premium prices, so it gets blended into excellent everyday wine.

[Ian_S]

Hope you don’t mind that I numbered your questions so I can answer below in an organized fashion.

1. You’ve confirmed this impression by blind tasting? 2. Including wines made by Burgundy producers using Oregon fruit? 3. Which US Pinots, costing more than $40 don’t you taste it in? 4. Have you tried any of the Oregon Pinots made by regulars in the Berserker community: i.e.: Goodfellow, PGC, Biggio-Hamina, Longplay, Vincent, Johan, Walter Scott? Please trust me (and them), these guys aren’t using additives. Perhaps some Jesus units.

I don’t think you’re crazy. I think you have biased expectations. Ripe fruit can provide a perception of sweetness which used to be a “tell” in blind Pinot tastings, particularly for differentiating Burgundy. Having put it to the test a few times, my experience is that it’s a moving target with more grey than black and white. But confident blind tasters persist. I doubt you’ll see Allen Meadows or other professional critics doing much blind Pinot tasting in public.

RT

1. Yes. Before it disbanded, a wine club I was in would do blind tastings.

2. Yes. Specifically, Drouhin from both France and the Willamette Valley.

3. Rivers-Marie’s Summa and pre-2012 Kosta Browne’s Sonoma Coast are the two that come immediately to mind.

4. Not sure of who is and who isn’t part of this extended family, so I couldn’t say except for there’s a good probability I have sampled one or two. I wouldn’t want to call them out by name anyway.
   
   
   Can you answer one question for me? Why is there a cheese head smiley? Are there lots of Packers fans here?

[James_Billy]

Burgundy- not enough good juice left over after the higher priced wines are made to make a significant amount of entry level wine.

Definitely true for many big negociants. Not so for small growers.

[Charlie_Carnes]

[*]

Most Oregon Pinot Noir has a taste of artificial sweetener that kills the enjoyment.

I didn’t realize this. Tell me more.

RT

Nothing more to tell. I perceive a hint of aspartame in most US Pinot Noirs in the under-$40 range. I don’t know why I taste it; I don’t know if there’s an actual additive (Mega-Red or Mega-Purple, or something else) or not that causes it; I don’t even know if I’m crazy or not. I’m just relaying my experience and won’t be baited into an argument over opinions, which seems to be all the rage here.

I guess I am buying the right stuff. The Oregon wines I drink and buy never have given me the impression of confection/aspertame. I don’t drink from many producers, but Goodfellow, Vincent, and Biggio-Hamina, Longplay, and Random Wine Company, have fit so well into my palate. I recommend trying some of these, if you havent. Also, they are all quite accessable.