I think you have to omit any 2005 or 2011 if you are looking for typical producer’s style. Also many here have had mixed results with 2014 and are not going to open more for a while.
I’d go with the Cathiard.
Agree to skip 2011 and 2014 and 2005.
Alternatively, if you had plenty of funds, you could buy all of the ones we’ve discussed so far plus others and that you would understand why the ones we’ve discussed so far are considered outliers.
I’ve really enjoyed that particular bottle of Dujac MSD, though the price is frightening.
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Flickinger has the 2017 Jouan old vine Clos Saint Denis in a six pack. If they are prepared to split the case; it is $211 per bottle.
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Right on. I would also like to add : (a) change of style = more accessible; (b) change in farming of the plot ** more organic which needs years to have a better result; and (c ) in my personal opining and experience with Trapet in the 1990s, it was not my preferred producer from my favorite AC Gevrey.
Lately Neal Martin wrote : he recommend : bee-dive for Trapet Petite Chapelle.
I agree strongly - for example in Quebec, Canada for 2022 Trapet - Latriceres is around CA $980 and Chambertin 2022 is around CA1383 and Petite Chapelle 2022 is around $320.
I know that there are a bunch of people on this board who want to delude themselves into thinking that young Burgundies are just as good as mature Burgundies, but if one really wants to learn about Burgundy one should learn how they taste when mature and a 7 year old Burgundy just is not mature no matter how much people want it to be.
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Then we get into a discussion about what is a mature wine.
When one has been drinking wine for over 40 years, you kind of know, at least for myself. But, nobody is going to learn it if they don’t try Burgundies more than 7 years old, an age where a lot of good ones start shutting down.
A lot of just depends on what your palate preferences are. @Nick_Christie @c.Eileen and I just had 88 Rousseau Chambertin/Beze and 17 Rousseau Chambertin/Beze at dinners a few months apart and they were all great but I preferred the 17s. I like fresh, energetic wines and while I can appreciate older wines I tend to prefer my Burgundies younger which is a good thing for me.
The best, freshest older bottles can be amazing, but very hard to find these days.
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And, if you had never tried any older wines (and 1988 is much older than say 2005) you would never know any of that. 2017 also is a pretty forward vintage and the wines taste really good right now. But, they will be better in 5 to 10 years.
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It’s very easy for older collectors to tell younger ones to try older wines, but a huge minefield for them to actually do it.
We were lucky that all 3 of the 88s we opened showed well, and were very carefully sourced from single owner cellars and had really good fills, but sourcing well-stored older bottles that you didn’t cellar yourself is a big risk as you could be getting wines that are DOA; that’s very unlikely to happen if you’re buying 2017s.
I’m not sure I would prefer the wines in 5-10 years. As I said, I like young Burgundy for the freshness and aromatics so we’ll just have to see. I have many cases of both of the 17 Chambertin and beze so I’m sure I’ll find out, although I’m certainly going to keep opening them as long as they’re drinking well.
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But we are not talking about the entire universe of wines. We are discussing three bottles where the OP wants to learn. How many 2005s and 2008s have you tasted that are getting tired? You keep putting in red herrings with things like your discussions of 1988s. My 1988s re long gone, but not after 7 years. They were really good for a long time.
The OP is talking about sourcing $250 bottles from top producers to learn. They’d be best off sourcing Lignier MSD 1er VV from say 2017 than trying to source something old.
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I was replying to this comment.
Not if you accept the notion that knowledge comes over time, and you can’t know it all at once like a big data dump download from The Matrix where suddenly you know Kung Fu. You can’t, and don’t need to, know everything right now. As an older collector, my advice is always to buy more than one bottle and take the time - yes, we are talking years - to follow the curve. You can get a bit of a headstart by buying slightly older vintages that are still available, but the real understanding comes slowly. It’s totally fine to open young wines. Just please don’t open all your young wines before giving them, and yourself, a chance. Be patient. Be diligent. Keep curious.
Then again, a lifetime of effort in pursuit of understanding is not for everyone.
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1988 is a pretty weird vintage to rely on when discussing mature wines. It was a good vintage, but not a great vintage. As I said, I drank mine a long time ago. There are a lot of vintages between 1988 and 2017. Sometimes, I think you just like to argue. I think you should sell all your 1999s, 2001s, 2002s, etc, and just drink 3 or 4 year old wines.
I’m just using it as an example because we had it recently. How about 1990, 1993, and 1999 Rousseau Chambertin which I’ve all had recently and still preferred the 17?
I am basically only keeping my older bottles for dinners and only buying and drinking newer vintages, so yes generally following your advice. Btw 2017 is 9 years old right now, not exactly a current release.
If your benchmark for wines being mature-ish is 2002 for burgundy (which it seems is the case from some of your posts) you’re basically suggesting someone buy 2022s (recently release) and set them down until 2046. That’s not particularly useful advice for someone buying burgundy right now. If you’re saying buy a couple extra bottles and lay them down, then sure, maybe that makes sense.
I didn’t take it that way. I took it as buy 6 or 12 and maybe try some young, but let most rest and learn from those bottles over time. If you want a head start, maybe get something from 2017 so that you have a little age on them, but are in a better drinking window now.
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But this goes back to my point earlier. People like different things. I don’t think I would prefer my wine the same as some others here - and that’s okay.