Pinot Noir vine genetics in Burgundy: some photos

[larry_schaffer]

Hey, Larry. They were mainly finished bottles from tasting rooms like Melville & Foley and what we could glean from futures tastings at the Wine Cask.

I am now making pinot and am working with 4 different clones from the same vineyard…they are expressing themselves distinctly enough to warrant a small separate bottling if each

That’s pretty cool. Have you tried any blending?

Markus,

Sounds like that was ‘from the past’ as many wineries around here are not offering ‘comparative’ clonal bottlings as much as they did 5-10 years ago. I will be putting together a blend of the three as my ‘standard’ pinot bottling, with the clonal selections being a 3 pack for my wine club members (and for Berserkerday as well )

Cheers

[M_Meer]

Nice! Instant wine tasting and should be very educational . I enjoyed when it was a more common practice but I can understand why it might not be anymore. I know only of one winery in Santa Maria that still does it.

Yes, this was in the early to mid 2000s when I was starting to get into wine. It was really valuable to try so many wines and talk to the people representing them. It’s a shame people have lost some of that ability (and not necessarily because of the pandemic).

[larry_schaffer]

Nice! Instant wine tasting and should be very educational . I enjoyed when it was a more common practice but I can understand why it might not be anymore. I know only of one winery in Santa Maria that still does it.

Yes, this was in the early to mid 2000s when I was starting to get into wine. It was really valuable to try so many wines and talk to the people representing them. It’s a shame people have lost some of that ability (and not necessarily because of the pandemic).

Markus,

Could not agree more. I am amazed at how few wineries do these clonal selections anymore . . . and the reason that I am is that each of these really are expressing themselves differently . . .

Cheers!

[M_Meer]

I hope people enjoy the wines and their nuances. Definitely have had really good monoclonal pinots.

[David_Patte]

Would love to see Jim Anderson’s thoughts on this topic.

Me too! And those of Kevin Harvey at Rhys, who has some very interesting vine genetics planted in his vineyards.

It is certainly interesting to pose the question how Burgundian selections of Pinot Noir (and there is plenty of Champenois, German and Swiss Pinot Noir in the USA, too) translate to California and Oregon. Firstly, is the highest quality material in Burgundy going to be the highest quality in CA or OR? And second, to what extent do the vines genetically adapt to where they are planted?

I am curious if in Burgundy a vineyard/domaine site would tend to focus on one clone or type for a selection massale, or do they on the contrary seek diversity? (Is diversity the goal of selection massale?)

I work with a vineyard in the Eola-Amity Hills (Willamette Valley) and vinify all six of its clones separately. At this site they all perform very well and each adds its unique profile to the blends: some have more overt tannins and structure (114 and 115), others have smaller berries but somehow a more balanced fruit/tannin/pepper/spice profile (667 and 777), and the Pommard does have bigger clusters/berries (not upright like 828) with more fruit not, and even bigger berries and clusters, but slower to ripen would be Wadensvil (so brighter fruit notes, nice to have on hot vintages!).

At this point I still like to blend these 6 together but we will see. My leading candidate would be 777 (which by the way, is very successful for Lumos Wines, the “G” Block reserve). Anyway, fascinating stuff!

[Kevin_Harvey]

What part does root stock play in this William?, and could you cut back a Pinot Droit and graft another clone onto the existing root system.

Rootstock plays an almost equal role to the scion. And an established root system can make it even more tempting to graft over to a better selection. However, we have done this grafting and carefully measured the results (chemistry, ripeness and tasting in barrel) and have not found the re-grafts to ever match the original grafts. This year the re-grafts reached 10 years post grafting and I was hoping to see them catch up with the original single graftings (side by side) but they did not. For this reason we no longer regraft and instead replant.

On the topic of rootstock, we have found even the “lowest Vigor” rootstocks such as Riparia Gloire and 420A are more vigorous than own-rooted vines.

[brigcampbell]

Love the science!

[larry_schaffer]

What part does root stock play in this William?, and could you cut back a Pinot Droit and graft another clone onto the existing root system.

Rootstock plays an almost equal role to the scion. And an established root system can make it even more tempting to graft over to a better selection. However, we have done this grafting and carefully measured the results (chemistry, ripeness and tasting in barrel) and have not found the re-grafts to ever match the original grafts. This year the re-grafts reached 10 years post grafting and I was hoping to see them catch up with the original single graftings (side by side) but they did not. For this reason we no longer regraft and instead replant.

On the topic of rootstock, we have found even the “lowest Vigor” rootstocks such as Riparia Gloire and 420A are more vigorous than own-rooted vines.

Can you explain the differences you found? We’re these objective or subjective? Thank you

[William_Kelley]

Would love to see Jim Anderson’s thoughts on this topic.

Me too! And those of Kevin Harvey at Rhys, who has some very interesting vine genetics planted in his vineyards.

It is certainly interesting to pose the question how Burgundian selections of Pinot Noir (and there is plenty of Champenois, German and Swiss Pinot Noir in the USA, too) translate to California and Oregon. Firstly, is the highest quality material in Burgundy going to be the highest quality in CA or OR? And second, to what extent do the vines genetically adapt to where they are planted?

I am curious if in Burgundy a vineyard/domaine site would tend to focus on one clone or type for a selection massale, or do they on the contrary seek diversity? (Is diversity the goal of selection massale?)

I work with a vineyard in the Eola-Amity Hills (Willamette Valley) and vinify all six of its clones separately. At this site they all perform very well and each adds its unique profile to the blends: some have more overt tannins and structure (114 and 115), others have smaller berries but somehow a more balanced fruit/tannin/pepper/spice profile (667 and 777), and the Pommard does have bigger clusters/berries (not upright like 828) with more fruit not, and even bigger berries and clusters, but slower to ripen would be Wadensvil (so brighter fruit notes, nice to have on hot vintages!).

At this point I still like to blend these 6 together but we will see. My leading candidate would be 777 (which by the way, is very successful for Lumos Wines, the “G” Block reserve). Anyway, fascinating stuff!

It really depends! Some massale selections, such as that taken from the Clos des Epeneaux and propagated by Hebinger, are quite diverse, with some plants having lager clusters, other smaller; others, not so much. It can be challenging to find enough viable virus-free material in an old vineyard to supply a properly diverse massale selection.

Interestingly, the Dijon clones tend to express quite differently in Burgundy to how they perform in California and Oregon, at least in my experience. But I find 777 on its own can tend toward the jammy. I have also found it interesting how cluster morphology doesn’t always translate to the results we would imagine. It’s a complicated business…

[Ken_Leiter]

Thanks to everyone for the great info in this thread. It is very interesting to me as a hobby vegetable gardener who grows a few fruit trees but has no experience with vitis vinifera. One question I had when reading through this thread was whether anyone is trying to grow from seed and select for desirable traits rather than taking cuttings from existing plants. I found an article that discusses some projects that grow new plants from seed to attempt to increase genetic diversity: Free the Grape Seed . This article answered a lot of the questions I had. The amount of diversity in the fruit produced by the offspring is much higher than I anticipated, not even the same color fruit as the parent plant. It reminds me of crossing tomato plants, you can generate offspring with very diverse character. I originally assumed that the well known grape varieties were like an heirloom tomato, that if it self pollinates it will have stable traits from generation to generation, but this is clearly not the case.

[David_Patte]

Thanks to everyone for the great info in this thread. It is very interesting to me as a hobby vegetable gardener who grows a few fruit trees but has no experience with vitis vinifera. One question I had when reading through this thread was whether anyone is trying to grow from seed and select for desirable traits rather than taking cuttings from existing plants. I found an article that discusses some projects that grow new plants from seed to attempt to increase genetic diversity: Free the Grape Seed . This article answered a lot of the questions I had. The amount of diversity in the fruit produced by the offspring is much higher than I anticipated, not even the same color fruit as the parent plant. It reminds me of crossing tomato plants, you can generate offspring with very diverse character. I originally assumed that the well known grape varieties were like an heirloom tomato, that if it self pollinates it will have stable traits from generation to generation, but this is clearly not the case.

Fascinating article. Good to know that there are efforts to find new genetic material for various varieties (especially for disease resistance and climate change) but it also reinforces the amazing effort that has transpired over thousands of years to find productive, stable and distinctly well-suited varieties for great wines.