Petit Chateaux that Outperform Classified

[Arv_R]

I wish I could give a resounding endorsement of the 2022 Vieux Domaine Bertineau [Lalande de Pomerol] but I think, at best, this will be a B level grade with a few years development and/or hours of decanting. I did not really ‘enjoy’ it until the final glass, 3 days after opening, which is rare given my affinity for the general category - smaller right bank satellites. I found grapey notes on opening, plummy palate, no bouquet yet, 14.5% abv printed on the label but feels thinner. This is a family whose wines I have followed and bought - they are like the Mouiex - all over the right Bank so I thought I had the odds tilted in my favor when I shelled out a dozen dollars for this.

However I am non plussed and would not repurchase, although to be fair, I rarely open dry red Bordeaux of any kind at age 3, but I wanted to see if this merited restocking. Supposedly the family has been running this since 1800’s, and it’s on the Neac plateau, although it’s not prominent enough to have made the atlas page for this AOC. It’s more pricey, but the familiy’s La Croix St Georges - a true Pomerol AOC - is an ageworthy powerhouse. We’ve had 98, 99, 00 in recent years and been super impressed.

It’s fun seeing how the WB consensus view on some names mentioned in this thread has changed as preferences and palates have evolved, or in bottle development has been evaluated.

[Paul_Bruck]

@Gerhard_P

@NoahR

… of the same or similar caliber to the better 2-4th growths …

1st: there are several 5th growth better than many 2-4th growth, e.g. Grand-Puy-Lacoste, Pontet-Canet, Lynch-Bages, Clerc-Milon, Haut-Batailley, Cantemerle …

2nd: there are several classified growth not worth the title (Marquis d´Alesme, Desmirail, Pouget, Boyd-Cantenac …Pedesclaux …)

My recs: (I guess you mean left bank wines)
sure Sociando-Mallet … Potensac, Meyney, Chasse-Spleen, Poujeaux, Gloria, Angludet, Tour-Haut-Caussan, Charmail, Siran, Lanessan (also Lachesnaye is good), Maucaillou, Labegorce-Zede, La Laouviere (Pessac-Leognan), La Becasse, Citran, La Tour de By … and many on the right bank …

That’s pretty much a perfect summary - I would add Phelan-Segur, Tronquoy-Lalande and Monbrison

[Paul_Bruck]

I remember it as really rustic, lacking a big flesh, but I had only, 1978, 1979, 1983 and 1985

[quote="Craig_G, post:55, topic:1
Anyone for Gressier Grand Poujeaux? I had a few nice bottles of the 1975 about five years back.

[/quote]

[Howard_Cooper]

@NoahR

Those with significant Bordeaux experience: are there any petit chateau or further-afield wineries that make wine you think is of the same or similar caliber to the better 2-4th growths, age worthy and relatively unspoofulated? I have loved Sociando Mallet with modest age on it in the past, if that is any indicator. I don’t mind a bit of blended merlot, but tend to shy away from merlot-based wines.

There’s so much out there and prices for highly touted wines seem to rise ever higher despite mediocre vintages, a low Euro, and waning demand. The thread of undervalued wines inspired me. There have to be tons of Bordelaise chateaux making age worthy and classic wines off the beaten path. Help!

Looking back at this thread, I see a lot of excellent wines being recommended. Great job. But, the OP asked for were wines similar to “better” 2-4 growths. When I think of better 2-4th growths, I think of Ducru, the Leovilles and Pichon, Montrose, Rauzan Segla, Palmer, Lynch Bages (a 5th growth), etc., etc. Are the people making the recommendations arguing that their recommendations are really good wines at excellent prices (no doubt this is true and this thread has been great at identifying some excellent value wines) or that they are as good as the better 2-4th growths - not sure I would go that far. Please identify the wines that are not classified that you think meet this high standard. I would love to try some.

[G_Bienstock]

I have purchased several bottles of this one from Grocery Outlet, and find it fairly engaging for such a young age. I deemed it a nice Merlot for $13.99.

[Paul_Bruck]

@Howard_Cooper

@NoahR

Those with significant Bordeaux experience: are there any petit chateau or further-afield wineries that make wine you think is of the same or similar caliber to the better 2-4th growths, age worthy and relatively unspoofulated? I have loved Sociando Mallet with modest age on it in the past, if that is any indicator. I don’t mind a bit of blended merlot, but tend to shy away from merlot-based wines.

There’s so much out there and prices for highly touted wines seem to rise ever higher despite mediocre vintages, a low Euro, and waning demand. The thread of undervalued wines inspired me. There have to be tons of Bordelaise chateaux making age worthy and classic wines off the beaten path. Help!

Looking back at this thread, I see a lot of excellent wines being recommended. Great job. But, the OP asked for were wines similar to “better” 2-4 growths. When I think of better 2-4th growths, I think of Ducru, the Leovilles and Pichon, Montrose, Rauzan Segla, Palmer, Lynch Bages (a 5th growth), etc., etc. Are the people making the recommendations arguing that their recommendations are really good wines at excellent prices (no doubt this is true and this thread has been great at identifying some excellent value wines) or that they are as good as the better 2-4th growths - not sure I would go that far. Please identify the wines that are not classified that you think meet this high standard. I would love to try some.

Almost all recommended Chateaux are better than Rauzan-Gassies (2), Croizet-Bages (5), Boyd-Cantenac (3), Cos Labory (5), Pedesclaux (5) and others, but nowhere near the level of e.g. Las Cases, Ducru, Pichon, Palmer, Grand Puy- Lacoste …

[Jim_Stewart]

I like your still life, Arv.

[Howard_Cooper]

Substantively, I agree, but are those “better” classified growths?

[KlausS]

Interesting thread resurrection with a lot of the old recos still in play today

Who loaded up on i.e. GPL and LCHB back then I guess did well too

[Julian_Marshall]

@Arv_R

It’s fun seeing how the WB consensus view on some names mentioned in this thread has changed as preferences have changed, palates have evolved, or in bottle development has been evaluated.

Yes, this is all part of the fun! I’m not sure that there is really a consensus as we all have different tastes. These lists of recommended wines are always subjective and they’re really only snapshots in time. Even in stuffy old Bordeaux, things do change, along with our palates, as you say.

I don’t know if Gerhard would agree with himself today - I would have more or less back then, but not now. I hadn’t even tasted Clos Du Jaugueyron, for example, back in 2016 - now, it would be in my list of challengers without any doubt. On the other hand some mentioned would no longer be in my list today: Labégorce, Meyney and Charmail are just too plush for me and even in 2016, I wouldn’t have said that the latter was really a CC challenger.

Among the CCs no longer worth their rank, things have changed too. Desmirail, Pouget, plus, as Paul says, Croizet-Bages and Cos Labory, yes, certainly, although the latter will doubtless improve now it has been bought by the neighbours. Rauzan-Gassies too perhaps, although they do occasionally produce great vintages. Back in 2016, I would have added Lynch-Moussas, but certainly not now - things have greatly improved. Likewise Pédésclaux - their 2016 is excellent and the 2010 I had this week was really good. Many here love Cantemerle - I like it a lot, but I would never suggest it challenges any more expensive CCs.

Back in 2016, I doubt many would say that Durfort and Ferrière were challenging other Margaux like Issan and Brane - today it’s a moot point - it would be fun to do a comparison of all Margaux 2016s.

Anyway, it’s all down to personal taste and specific wines in specific vintages. For me for example, Sociando-Mallet 2001 is a lot better than Ducru 01 at a quarter of the price, probably not in other vintages. There are no easy answers!