Hey Alan,
how have you been? I’ll answer with my opinion. Though, I’m the first to mention that I hold no wine degrees or such. For me, it doesn’t make a difference if bread is considered natural or otherwise. I consider it a natural product. I also consider most wine (if not all) to be natural. This includes those that are inoculated.
The way I see it, we all have choices in what we make and drink. For me, I have a personal interest, a personal preference and a professional result which is certainly influenced by the other two along with other aspects. These thoughts or preference do nothing to take anything away from what others are doing. In fact, I am Very glad that others are doing something different. I believe that this is best for everyone, consumers, producers, importers, sales staff, etc. Why have the same wine? Why would you want to close yourself off with labels?
And, the seal of natural can be considered to be many things. It always will until we all share the same opinions and thought processes. With this in mind, hopefully we can continue to disagree about this for many decades to come.
This is fun!
What is your point though? To prove that the result you get by adding commercial yeasts selected in south africa or in germany is the same than what we, growers using native yeasts, get?
But, Adam, the answer is clearly, NO. And these studies just add a little rationality to what any trained drinker can taste by himself.
Is it better or worse? This is THE stupid question. And obviously your concern has to do with the answers that you think people will give.
Give yourself a break. None of these studies nor major wine critics ever said that native is better than commercial.
This is all about aesthetics. Some feel better with native, some don’t.
I do. You don’t. It doesn’t make you a better winemaker that me. Or the opposite.
Same for the wines. And I bet your customers would’nt care for my wines anyway!
Eric, you asked my what my point is. I read the study, entirely, and am trying to relate what the study actually says. Kevin cited the study in response/contradiction to Alan saying that it hasn’t been proven that “native yeasts on the grapes drive the fermentation.”
In fact, the study itself:
Didn’t test any grapes at all for yeast
Apparently didn’t test the “soil, bark, and flowers” in the vineyard that the grapes for the wine in question came from
Found that the yeast in the greatest quantity in the uninnoculated fermentation most closely resembles the yeast found in the new barrels
My only point is that I don’t see how you can use that study to prove or disprove anything about native yeasts on the grapes.
Finally, Eric, you shouldn’t make comments about a winery and its practices if you aren’t knowledgeable in that area. If you were to come to my winery now you would see that about 3/4 of the ferments we have going right now are uninnoculated. That’s in a new winery (fwiw). Why would that be? Because that’s my first choice. If we went tank by tank and bin by bin and you asked my why I innoculated the 1/4 that have been inncoulated, I could give you specific reasons on each. But my first position is to do less not more. – Do I think one is better than the other? Sometimes, and when I think uninnoculated in better I do that – when I think adding yeast is better I do that.
FWIW, my experience: in 2001 we made our first wine in a refurbished agricultural shed that had only served for grain storage previously, with brand-new fiberglass vats, and with three grape varieties: the earliest one was syrah from a three year-old vineyard, then garnacha/grenache from a 20 year-old one, then monastrell/mourvèdre from a 60 year-old one. All three started (and finished!) fermenting without any commercial yeasts added, only with a ‘pied-de-cuve’ for the initial batch of syrah.
The same for us Victor.
We are in our 3rd facility (this time a new cave) that has never been used for fermentation before us. Each time, the uninoculated ferments have started perfectly.
To summarize, the study found:
The 2nd and 3rd most populous yeast were residents of the vine bark, flowers and soil of a nearby vineyard. They were not related to any known commercial isolates.
It does take one small logical baby step to make the connection that they came in on the grapes, but does anyone really believe (rather than debate) that this is not likely?
I am sure there will be even more clarification and leanring in this area now. In fact, I would love to a study of what is happening in our vineyards/fermentations.
No, no debate team. Just try to read studies with a critical eye.
Actually, the yeasts found in the ferment were not residents of the vine bark, flowers, and soils of a nearby vineyard. The study says that, “none of the Matua genotypes matched any commercial isolate in our database, but neither did they match any of the isolates found in the ferment.” Rather, what they found was that some of the genotypes in the ferment cluster closely with the soil, bark, and flowers of a nearby (6km) vineyard.
We don’t even know, from the study, if Kumeu River obtains fruit from this vineyard. And it doesn’t appear that the wine that showed these yeasts that “cluster closely” with the vineyard came from that vineyard at all.
We do know that bees in the area have, in their honeycomb, almost the same genotype of yeast that was found in the Matua Vineyard (which, again, is apparently not the vineyard that the wine came from).
Finally, and this is an important point, we don’t know if Kumeu River (or some other area winery) has been, over the years, putting their grape skins, stems, etc back into the Matua vineyard. If that were the case would it be any surprise that the yeasts that cluster closely together were found in both places?
So, I don’t think it is a small logical leap to say the yeasts came in on the grapes. Seems like a bigger leap than you are giving it credit for.
I do agree that the future studies in this area will be fascinating.
It’s my Dad’s birthday today. He’s 68,69 or 70, depends on what set of paperwork you’re looking at. Record keeping in rural New Mexico circa 1940 wasn’t so great.
I love it when I hear people now talk about their dogs. What park they like best, what treat is their favorite, what toy is the best. I especially like the discussions about where the dog sleeps. End of the bed, middle of the bed, its own bed, ect.
My Dad’s reply to where does the dog sleep would be; “I don’t know ask the dog.”
That’s my reply to the question of where do the yeast come from: “I don’t know ask the yeast”.
They work, I like how the wine comes out, and they finish my ferments. I have not built my yeast friends into any kind of dogma, and I don’t particularly think they need a marketing program. I’m happy they are there, like an old ranch dog, but I don’t really care where they sleep at night.
Botrytis (or aspergillus or mildew) – If we have significant concerns on either of these fronts we will innoculate for fermentation.
History – We have a vineyard in Oregon that, every time we let it go thru without innoculation, we end up with unacceptable amounts of acetic acid. This occurs not just at the beginning of fermentation but all of the way thru. – We have another vineyard where, after much trial and error, we have discovered that we like to innoculate one particular part of the fruit with a particular yeast.
Kevin — I don’t have any problems with saying that a vineyard has yeast in it. Nor do I have any problem saying that those yeast are involved in the fermentation process. I just haven’t seen that the yeast from a vineyard, transmitted on the grapes, is involved in the fermentation, yet it in a study. And the Goddard study certainly doesn’t say that. — Of course, there are many other reasons, such as a micro-nutrient deficiency - that could lead the yeasts that are predominant in our winery to produce excess ethyl acetate in that one wine. Haven’t studied it.
Emilio – No, dry farmed organically farmed, etc etc. Same as another section of the vineyard right next to it which doesn’t have that same issue (one is Wadenswil clone – the one with the issue, the other a mix of Dijon. The Wadenswil has about 3% Pinot Gris mixed in).
Adam’s description does rather point to the side arguing that yeasts in the vineyard are more involved in fermentation than indigenous winery yeast strains.
Cute My point is that you can’t make bread without adding yeast. Is bread unqualified to be called a “natural” product? If it’s natural, than so is wine made with added yeast, no?
On the other hand, as harvest progresses we have a much harder time keeping juice in a cold-soak state as they seem to take off much quicker on their own.
So Adam, have you done panels on several different bins, from different vineyards, to see what the dominant yeast strains are? Would be pretty easy to put this question to rest, with as many vineyard sources as you have, all in the same winery.
organically farmed, etc etc. Same as another section of the vineyard right next to it which doesn’t have that same issue (one is Wadenswil clone – the one with the issue, the other a mix of Dijon. The Wadenswil has about 3% Pinot Gris mixed in).
My point is that you can’t make bread without adding yeast. Is bread unqualified to be called a “natural” product? If it’s natural, than so is wine made with added yeast, no?