Passive wine cellar in Virginia?

[John_O]

Remember that every single wine cellar in the world was passive until mid-way through the 20th century, and many still are. Ever read breathless reviews of the 29 and 47 bordeaux? Every one of those bottles was stored in a passive cellar for decades before moving (presumably) to an active cellar, and every single bottle tasted here was shipped to the states in an unrefrigerated container ship. I don’t know the status now, but I seem to recall that as recently as the last 15 years or so Margaux’s cellars were still passive (and get up to the mid-60s).

I think people make way too much over cellar conditions. I think this is one of the unfortunate legacies of the Parker era (all of his “stored at 55” posts). The hard data on the impact of slightly warmer/less stable cellars is thin to non-existent; what we have are anecdotal conclusions offered that an active cellar is required, universally from people who have them.

For my personal (and no doubt idiosyncratic) perspective, you might be over-thinking this a tad.

Great point. Perhaps another consequence is slower aging. Instead of that great Burgundy being prime after 25 years, it’s now prime 10 years after you’re dead.

[David_Glasser]

Right now I’m scaling up to wines that need to age. I have a decent assortment of Pine Ridge and Ridge wines that could use 5 to 20 years. But the vast majority are 5 to 7 year agers (GSM, Zins, various Pinots). I developed a taste for old Bordeaux (mostly 2CC and 3CC) I have avoided too many super-valuable wines because I knew they’d be at 70F for a while. But once the cellar is built . . .

I’m reworking my model for my floor R values. I took some measurements along the slab and the gradient is more than I thought. I can’t discount the heat flow from the slab towards the cooler cellar area. At worst, that heat flow is almost the same magnitude as what flows straight through the floor with the cellar temps I’m looking at. Reality is probably about 1/3 that based on soil temp distribution. When I worked that into the model, I’m getting R values of about 4 for the floor (reasonable for a slab over gravel). Also means I need to insulate from the mechanicals and ducts and insulate the ceiling around the cellar area to keep as much heat on the 1st floor as possible.

I drink often wines from the cellars of two friends with passive cellars in the DC area. One drinks his wines on the younger side and the wines usually show well. The other ages wines much longer and his aged wines tend not to taste as good as the same wine tasted from cellars using cooling units. A bit duller.

Several side by side comparisons over the years of 3 cases 1983 Prieure Lichine, half stored in my actively cooled cellar and half stored in my father’s passive cellar (~62-72 degrees seasonally) for the first decade before being transferred to my active cellar showed more rapid development of the passively stored bottles.

Sometimes the active bottles were brighter, more defined, and better, similar to Howard’s comments. Other times the differences were minimal or indistinguishable, but it was difficult to compare peaks that were happening at different times (earlier for the passive bottles) other than by memory. The passive bottles were never significantly better than the active ones.

That said, none of the passive bottles were bad, and they did develop nice tertiary characteristics. And as Neal said, plenty of bottles did great for centuries before there was any refrigeration. Depending on how particular you are and how long you plan to cellar things, active cooling my not be necessary. I do agree with the comment that active cooling would be a plus to potential buyers if you ever sell the wines.

[Howard_Cooper]

Right now I’m scaling up to wines that need to age. I have a decent assortment of Pine Ridge and Ridge wines that could use 5 to 20 years. But the vast majority are 5 to 7 year agers (GSM, Zins, various Pinots). I developed a taste for old Bordeaux (mostly 2CC and 3CC) I have avoided too many super-valuable wines because I knew they’d be at 70F for a while. But once the cellar is built . . .

I’m reworking my model for my floor R values. I took some measurements along the slab and the gradient is more than I thought. I can’t discount the heat flow from the slab towards the cooler cellar area. At worst, that heat flow is almost the same magnitude as what flows straight through the floor with the cellar temps I’m looking at. Reality is probably about 1/3 that based on soil temp distribution. When I worked that into the model, I’m getting R values of about 4 for the floor (reasonable for a slab over gravel). Also means I need to insulate from the mechanicals and ducts and insulate the ceiling around the cellar area to keep as much heat on the 1st floor as possible.

I drink often wines from the cellars of two friends with passive cellars in the DC area. One drinks his wines on the younger side and the wines usually show well. The other ages wines much longer and his aged wines tend not to taste as good as the same wine tasted from cellars using cooling units. A bit duller.

Several side by side comparisons over the years of 3 cases 1983 Prieure Lichine, half stored in my actively cooled cellar and half stored in my father’s passive cellar (~62-72 degrees seasonally) for the first decade before being transferred to my active cellar showed more rapid development of the passively stored bottles.

Sometimes the active bottles were brighter, more defined, and better, similar to Howard’s comments. Other times the differences were minimal or indistinguishable, but it was difficult to compare peaks that were happening at different times (earlier for the passive bottles) other than by memory. The passive bottles were never significantly better than the active ones.

That said, none of the passive bottles were bad, and they did develop nice tertiary characteristics. And as Neal said, plenty of bottles did great for centuries before there was any refrigeration. Depending on how particular you are and how long you plan to cellar things, active cooling my not be necessary. I do agree with the comment that active cooling would be a plus to potential buyers if you ever sell the wines.

David,

I have had very similar experiences with 1982 Canon 1/2 a case of which was bought by me and actively cooled and half of which were in passive storage through around 1993 or so at my parent’s house.

[Anthony_C]

Update:
Painting done, dry fitting racks now. Left framing in wall for a CellarPro unit if necessary, but I’m going to try passive for now.

Roughly R40 walls, R50 ceiling, bare floor.

Individual bottle racks for old world and “agers” on the left, X/Flat on the right for new-world, early drinking, and odd shapes.

Eventual plan is to build a very small table in the middle along the wall to stand up / decant. Overall, about 500 bottle capacity, which would be 3x what I have now.


Need to fix one of the racks and install/level/trim. Then light fixture, then door.

[AndrewH]

Overall, about 500 bottle capacity, which would be 3x what I have now.

Hahahahaha. Let us know how that goes.

Prediction for Feb. 2021 - “Folks, I’m getting close to capacity . . . what do I do?”

[Anthony_C]

Followed by, “Anyone know a good divorce lawyer?”

[MikeHill]

Followed by, “Anyone know a good divorce lawyer?”

You will know you are approaching divorce lawyer status when you are anxiously waiting to intercept FedEx so you can rush the boxes down before the wife notices.

[Anthony_C]

Finished!*

*sort of. Still needs a nice light fixture, trim molding, and a door that isn’t me sliding foam insulation in front of the opening.

But it’s 9 degrees cooler down there than my dining room and the racks are secure.

Thanks for the help all! I’ll post again next summer with some nerd data on how the temps did (and if it’s full yet)

[Sarah_S]

Followed by, “Anyone know a good divorce lawyer?”

You will know you are approaching divorce lawyer status when you are anxiously waiting to intercept FedEx so you can rush the boxes down before the wife notices.

Far better is shipping to the fedex office and picking it up when you know the husband is going to be out for a few hours…best not to leave anything to chance!

[Sarah_S]

Finished!*

*sort of. Still needs a nice light fixture, trim molding, and a door that isn’t me sliding foam insulation in front of the opening.

But it’s 9 degrees cooler down there than my dining room and the racks are secure.

Thanks for the help all! I’ll post again next summer with some nerd data on how the temps did (and if it’s full yet)

2020-06-19 13.05.25.jpg2020-06-19 13.05.35.jpg

Anthony, looks great.

[Shar_N]

Just curious, how’s the project coming along? I’m considering a passive cellar in Richmond. My temps are similar to yours.

[Anthony_C]

It’s done and has been working well.

I say done, but I still need to finish some trim molding and paint the door jamb, but it’s had about 500 bottles in it for a while now and I couldn’t be happier. It tops out at 65F in the heat of the summer and gets just below 55 at the coldest part of winter. Done that for a few years now so I think it’s pretty steady. Glad I didn’t go active, but I did frame in for a chiller if I ever change my mind.

I have a small wine fridge outside the cellar that I keep wines that need to be a bit colder (mostly just to keep them ready to serve).

Right now the big project is finishing up the small bar area outside the cellar. I’m finishing the countertop this weekend and will hopefully get to installing the sink next week.