I overproofed the boules I made this past weekend and they were flattened but tasted good. My kitchen is cold so I did not think I would have an overproofing issue. The dough was 78% hydration.
Peter, do you know anyone who makes SD bread? They will always have discard that can be used to build up your own starter.
I like the method in both Flour Water Salt Yeast by Ken Forkish and Tartine by Elizabeth Prueitt and Chad Robertson
The “darker” your flour (the flour you feed your starter), the more sour it will be. I feed mine with Bob’s Red Mill Dark Rye flour. So white is the least sour, then whole wheat a bit more, and rye even more sour. Also with using rye I feed mine at 140% hydration, otherwise it is super thick.
Another way to get a more sour flavor is by doing a longer bulk ferment in the fridge. I usually just do ~20-24 hours, but you can go for 2-3 days.
Thanks!so much. Interesting stuff. I’m thinking I’ll try working on a starter this week. Two questions:
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I’ve been using King Arthur Bread Flour in the recipe I linked above and it doesn’t call for fridge time at all, just proofing for around 12 hours on the counter at <70°. Do you think either of those things impacts flavor?
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I’ve been reading a few articles on making starter but haven’t found details about hydration % or how/why to measure it. Any help on that?
Twelve hours on the counter is probably going to way overproof, depending on your ambient temperature. As in the video I posted above in post #4, most people do a refrigerator cold retard at least over night. So you do your stretch and folds and a room temp bulk ferment, and then into the fridge until you are ready to bake. In the above video she does a super long autolyse also, which I don’t think is necessary, but the rest is basically what I follow.
As far as the starter, I got mine in SF, but if you make your own, as soon as you get it going and start your regular feedings, you can play around with hydration. Most people just feed 50/50 water and flour, but as I said, I go higher hydration due to the rye flour. But really, there is no set rule. Because darker flours have a higher ability to absorb water, I up the hydration. If you just feed with bread or AP flour, that wouldn’t be necessary. Some people feed without weighing and just go by sight. It just takes time to get a feel for it. I always think of it like this. People have been making bread for thousands of years without the ability to weigh things or use fancy mixers and the like. Don’t feel like you have to rigidly follow “the rules”, because there really aren’t any. I am in a sourdough group on FB, and there are people who use unfed starter right out of the fridge with good results. Sourdough is probably the hardest bread to start with (which is what I did). So don’t beat yourself up if it takes a while. Because it will!
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All I can say about it being over-proofed is that it came out really well and the guy who gave me the recipe does it that way all the time. The length of time is based on temperature in the space. 12 hours is the maximum.
I’ve since found a local retail source for what I’m told is a 200 year-old starter. I’m going to buy some tomorrow and probably use both that and one I’ll start on my own this week to compare.
I’ve now found several ‘recipes’ on what flour(s) to feed starter with. It’ll be interesting to hear what’s recommended by the retailer.
How about proofing in the wine cellar overnight to average it out.
I finally have starter going like gang busters. 3 jars going at once. I will make bread tomorrow using half of each jar and experiment with different flours for feeding. I will use rye in one, wheat in the second and garam in the third.
There are several members here far more expert than me, regardless I will jump in with some bread crumbs. I started working on sourdough 1 year ago, very recreationally.
Buying starters never gets you something unique, except skipping the part of making your starter. Eventually the ambient yeast in your environment take over and this does not take long.
AP flour always works for feeding. You can increase whole grain as you please, this is typically done to compliment higher whole grain breads. A good way to take the starter variable somewhat out of the equation is to build a levain. You can also adjust the sour level of your bread by adjusting the ratio of starter that goes into the new levain. The levain must also float just like pure starter, and I don’t mean barely float, I mean so buoyant you could put some beach chairs on it.
Final dough temperature is extremely important as soon as your dough has been mixed, which means you need to adjust the water temp to suit. This ensures bulk times are generally in line and also that gluten development is not compromised. For high whole grain percentages aim for 75-78F once mixed, and for bread flours aim for 78-82F. I encourage an autolyse step in mixing, that is hydration without salt and very little working of dough prior.
Knowing when to cut bulk and start the shaping process is one of the more difficult things. The purpose of bulk is to build dough strength while allowing fermentation to reach a point shy of maximum activity. A well bulked dough will be domed around the edges of the bowl (showing gluten strength), will become silky and smooth, becomes markedly less dense with a more fluffy texture that you can feel as you do folds, and will start to show uniform bubbles with small bubbles showing just beneath the surface of the dough. For sourdough the length of this varies based on ambient temp, somewhere between 3 and 7 hours for room temps of 70 to 80F. Do not rely strictly on recipe times. You need to do enough repetitions to understand how to feel and see a proper bulk. Use wet hands for folds and you don’t need as many folds as you think, even 3 folds is generally sufficient.
Shaping is more important than you think particularly for sourdough. Pre-shape, bench rest, final shape, into proofing basket. Try to use as little flour as possible, ideally only lightly flouring your hand so it does not stick. Use a bench scraper. Be gentle enough with the pre-shape that the dough will relax and spread within 10-30 minutes before final shape, do not tear the dough with surface tension. For the final shape you want to build surface tension so the dough sits proud and tall, use a dry clean countertop and bench scraper to pull and gather the dough while building surface tension. Stop before you get to the point where the surface tears. You can either place in basket for final 1-2 hour proof (using finger poke test for proofing measurement), or place your basket in the refrigerator for a cold proof that lasts 12-16 hours. The cold proof is useful because it is usually done overnight and you simply score and go directly into the oven. It is also more forgiving when you dump it out of the basket and gives you more time for scoring.
Steam is really important for baking. If you don’t have a tray of boiling water in the oven, use a dutch oven that is pre-heated. Bake longer than you think, you want deep dark colors, very hard to overdo it. Generally I am around 45 minutes at 475.
Finally, as you progress, try to start thinking more about ratios than recipes to achieve the result you want. Understanding baker percentages gives you the freedom to adjust quantities and final result with the ingredients at hand without ever having to look at a recipe. You may not even need a calculator.
Really very helpful. Lots of very useful details. THANK YOU!!! I do have questions though:
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I’m unclear as to what you mean by “building a levain” as if it’s something unusual to take the variability out of the starter. As I’m new to this I’ve read quite a bit (maybe too much) and every method details making a levain (that mixture that includes the starter), so don’t you always “build” a levain? Sorry if this is a naive question.
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About the levain “floating”- could you please go into some detail about what that means?
Thanks again.
AND no matter what you do, remember the adage from the original Tassajara Bread Book, which I have had and used since the early 1970s. At least I think that is what it is. The cover and the title page are long gone and the page on how to braid challah is covered in almost 50 years of dough.
Paraphrasing:
“There is no such thing as failure. Just the invention of a new way to make bread.”
Hey Peter-
1- A true levain is generally built around 8-12hrs in advance with a 50-100% hydrated dough and 20-30% starter, and generally is 10-25% baker percentage for the full recipe. You can use a starter straight away that is super active and peaking, it just makes timing much more critical. A levain can be built with a starter in most any ripe stage provided it isn’t too old. This means I can pull starter from the fridge for over a week to build a levain without feeding anything during that time.
2- Gently scrape out a piece of levain trying not to compress it so as not to affect density. Drop it in water. It should strongly float, not sink, and not hang somewhere below the water surface but above the bottom.
Another tip on bulk I forgot. Cut a small piece of dough and put it in a small jar aside your bulk. When it has expanded somewhere around 33-50% your bulk will be in the range of done. This is a secondary reality check but can give you an idea of when you should start evaluating. This doesnt work well for 100% whole grains since they dont rise much.
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Everything impacts flavor! But more important is starter to recipe ratio and flour constituents. Starter time and temp not so much so long as it is healthy.
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Sourdough Starter Recipe | King Arthur Baking (have done this a couple times, easy)
I am making bread that tastes quite delicious but I do not get the big air holes consistently, and I need larger bubbles to reduce weight, and hence reduced carbs, because I am a diabetic. Let us say I mix 200 gms of starter with 600 gms of flour and about 300 gms water. I was told to leave it in the refrigerator overnight and that seems to work, but I have trouble getting it from the bowl into the fake Le Cruset, which is supposed to be preheated. If I move it directly from the refrigerator into the preheated pot, it is not at temp, but if I let it rise first, then it deflats when I move it into the pot to bake. Any thoughts? Here is my last effort. Mostly white flour and some organic whole ground wheat flour and a tiny bit of Garam and oatmeal flour (Real Quaker oats + Blender to turn into flour) just for extra flavor.
