Palate fatigue doesn't exist?

WINE TALK
21

DanBerger was originally from SanDiego where he tasted on the CalifGrapeVine newsletter panel. Then he became
the wine columnist for the SanDiego newspaper. Then he moved up NorthCoast way and writes his blog and
occasional newspaper articles. He judges at a lot of wine competitions. I find his writing always interesting and
often insightful.
As to the 2’nd question…I care what DanBerger has to say on this subject, and many other subjects as well.
Good writer I think. But, like any other writer, he’s not always right.
Tom

22

tom - thanks. i read that as well from his website. it’s very interesting and i’m sure he’s a swell fellow.

but as far as i can tell, he has no medical training or history of scientific research necessary to opine on the physiological aspects of what we’d casually term “palate fatigue.” therefore, it’s ridiculous to quote him as a credible source on the topic – he’s just providing his own anecdotal thoughts which might be interesting but shouldn’t be the starting point for a proper discussion on the topic – unless your only goal is for a bunch of random people to state whether they do or do not “believe” in it. it’s not a belief, it’s a fact that is provable (or disprovable as the case may be).

23

I think there is some form of fatigue of the ol taste buds.

On my last napa trip, by the 4th - 5th winery it was more of a challenge. I think it was perhaps a build up of tannins on the tongue, I dont really know exactly what. I drank a LOT of water, had some bread or crackers, but it catches up.

Life can be tough… [drinkers.gif]

24

DanBerger could have won the nobel prize for all I care, he is now a complete bozo in my book.

25

I can only assume he believes it does not affect him. It seems dubious but I suppose it could be true FOR HIM. I really would love to test it out with some kind of scientific test. I know it affects me. Sometimes you can work/concentrate thru it, for a bit anyway.

26

I just did a solid week of tastings in Vienna for the ÖGZ, the Austrian Gastronomy Magazine.
on this occasion we tasted 320 wines in five days, starting off usually with six to ten desserts,
then palate cleansers,
followed by varietally-specific flights of a dozen reds at a time.

the state of my palate—and I’m not a heroic winetaster, and probably smoked too much Rattray’s Red Rapparee and drank too much Laphroaig in my 20s to have the most acute tastebuds—
was so much better even toward the end of the day than it was with the same group tasting the same sort of wines a year earlier, where we did toward 100 wines per day…

27

I get palate fatigue for sure. It depends on the day how fast or hard it sets in, and concentration seems to be a factor, but I believe there is also something physical going on. Even on a very good day, after 40-50 wines in one session I’m not really on point anymore. I’ll keep going as I do get some impression, but I’m not getting subtleties anymore.

28

My experience indicates it exists, although there are things that can be done to ameliorate it or put it off for a bit.

29

I have always found his writing to be quite good.

In regards to this wine judging kerfuffle, I have found that competition organizers have dug in and fired shots at us with some ferocity. As they are entitled to do.

30

yeah, palate fatigue exists - I suspect some individuals are more tolerant than others - for me - about 12 wines - then it starts to blur - maybe if I spit more…

31

Well, again, there is the problem of coming up with an agreed-upon definition of “palate fatigue.” But here are three phenomena in wine-tasting that in my experience commonly affect how we perceive wine when we taste multiple wines in one sitting:

  1. Effect of alcohol itself. Even if you’re spitting, most of us will swallow at least some wine with each taste. Ultimately, over time with more and more tastes, the alcohol consumption goes up and some intoxication will occur. Once there is intoxication, it becomes more challenging to discern small differences between wines.

  2. Effect of tasting Wine A on Wine B. When you taste Wine B, there is typically a difference in how you perceive it if you taste it by itself, as opposed to tasting it after Wine A. If Wine B is a relatively medium-bodied wine for its type, but if Wine A is a relatively heavy-bodied wine for its type, you almost certainly will perceive Wine B differently on its own vs. compared to following Wine A. Now take that contextual effect and multiple it many times, depending on how many wines you taste in one sitting.

  3. Effect of drinking tannic red wines. If you’re just drinking wine, you’ve undoubtedly noticed the difference in mouthfeel in your first taste of a tannic red wine, versus later tastes of the same wine. A wine that seems extremely tannic initially likely may seem much less tannic as you continue to drink it–the sense of astringency may diminish. Since that effect can occur with just one wine, imagine what happens when you are drinking multiple samples of tannic red wine.

Undoubtedly there are other phenomena that occur in tasting multiple wines that contribute to what I consider to be “palate fatigue.” In any event, “palate fatigue” certainly is real when tasting many, many wines during the course of a single session without a break.


Bruce

32

I’m certainly personally a believer in palate fatigue. But Evan did you respond to his question re your source about research?

I think DrVino might have quoted a study a while back (maybe in a BigJ article)

33

Note to DB: If you handwrite your notes and I’m sure you’ve been to mega-tastings where a 100 or so wines are offered in an afternoon, please explain why the handwriting and specificity of the notes degrade (and I defy you to say that the don’t) but not the palate.

34

Berger ought to know better. Let him taste about 20 barrel samples and let’s see if he’s still humming the same tune.

35

Putting several things together, Dale. They include, per Jamie Goode via Keith, a look at aromatic fatigue (for lack of better term), which is undeniably a part of palate fatigue. And there is more.

And yet I think the door is open for a comprehensive new study on the subject.

By the way, I have no reason to think Dan doesn’t believe what he says, even if it seems outlandish. We’ve heard Jay Miller’s thoughts on the subject.

36

Good list, Bruce. I find that the context can affect how many wines I can taste before I start feeling a definite drop-off in my ability to distinguish small differences. There have been some occasions where I feel wiped out after 25-30 wines and others where I can go 85-90 before what I feel is palate fatigue starts setting in. I should mention that I always spit at any “serious” tasting. I usually take notes too, since I do write-ups for the bigger tastings I attend, and I suspect that helps keep me sharper than if I was not taking notes. And obviously my general physical & mental condition the day of the tasting has an effect too.

There’s also no question that I’m able to taste more wines at large events than was the case 7-8 years ago - there’s certainly a learning curve on how to avoid palate fatigue, and the more you do these large tastings and figure out what works for you, the more wines you can taste.

I think that Dan Berger is a very good writer, and of course he’s entitled to his opinion, but I’m not sure I’ve heard anyone else ever say or write that palate fatigue in tasting wine is a myth. As noted above, I believe it’s real, but can vary widely between individuals and between specific circumstances. On the other hand, a quick Google search turned up no scientific research or studies on palate fatigue that I could find. So I’m also curious to see something more about it than just anecdotal evidence.

BTW, here’s that Dr. Vino blog post that Dale mentioned above:

One of the comments references this Slate article: Do you taste what I taste?
The Slate article contains some viewpoints from Dr. Charles Wysocki, who is presented as an expert on olfaction, supporting the idea of palate fatigue but did not refer to any actual research or studies that I could see. One of the last comments on the Dr. Vino post, from John Woodward MD (I have no idea who he is), suggested that mixing different varieties and wine styles rather than tasting a large number of Cabs, for example, would help reduce the effects of palate fatigue. But again, no research is referenced on that opinion (though I think he may well be correct about that).

Evan, do you have a link to Jamie Goode’s writing on aromatic fatigue? Sounds interesting but I wasn’t able to find it.

37

THere is a difference between saying “palate fatigue is a myth” compared to “i have not experienced palate fatigue” or even “palate fatigue has not been a factor for any tastings I have attended”

There are a plethora of wine writers out there, far too many to read, so I try to weed out the ones that simply rely on sensationalism to get readers- this is perhaps not as sensationalist as the blogger that was calling for Laube’s head a week or so back, or other wine-writers/bloggers out there, but it is enough of a blanket, ignorant statement to lump him in with that crowd. Noise over content.

38

I agree that palate fatigue affects me, but it takes a while!!

I also like to warm my palates up before a big tasting…and get it well seasoned, so to speak…

39

Dan Berger says all kinds of crazy stuff. Like this for instance:

“Rogness is one of the ablest sommeliers I have ever encountered…take my advice and take his!”

But that was 22 years ago when his palate was sharper… [snort.gif] [rofl.gif] neener

40

Interesting aside - MrBigJ posted a new thread on RP in a response to this thread. Said “another BB” is discussing the topic, and that in his opinion some people are not impacted by palate fatigue (or at least he isn’t). Fast forward a couple hours, and his thread is “missing” from RP. Odd.