Oregon Wine Decoys

Cellar Rats (ITB)
21

Before I get myself into trouble here on a public board, I probably need to say that I do really like my OLCC investigator. He’s gone out of his way to be helpful and customer service oriented, and has helped me navigate through the sometimes twisted path toward licensing.

The server ed classes are also pretty good. They are farmed out to private companies to conduct, and they’re set up to be fun and interesting, while also teaching the law and regs, and ways to check ID including common scams.

But yeah, there are quite a few areas where we could use some code changes. And I’d definitely start with that stupid prohibition against us tasting through our wines to ensure quality before pouring!

22

I am quoting someone else here, and maybe it does fit into the realm of urban legend, dunno, but as I said IF this is what’s going on, I think even you’d agree it crosses a line, yes?

IF that was going on yes I totally agree…but based on case law (and Oregon is part of the 9th Circut like Cali is) I find this hard to believe. I’d say more like someone a tad upset about being caught and doing a little exzageration. I’d love to find out what they ment by “they look professional” and “talk the talk.” Like I mentioned there are case laws about doing these and the kids are told not engage in general conversation.

Before I get myself into trouble here on a public board, I probably need to say that I do really like my OLCC investigator. He’s gone out of his way to be helpful and customer service oriented, and has helped me navigate through the sometimes twisted path toward licensing.

Mary thanks for the kind words for him.

it is an annoyance to our customers to have to pull out their ID, and I’d prefer not to annoy them. It’s as simple as that.

Then you have made a choice to risk getting caught, fined, possibly arrested, and your liqour license suspended or revoked. You know the risks, all I ask is not to complain if you knowing broke it and you were betting on not getting caught and then you did. I for one would rather my customers be a little annoyed then me getting a large fine, possible arrest, criminal history, and my business’ license get pulled. I don’t think they would ante up and pay that fine for you just so they won’t be annoyed…do you?

I’m sorry Andy, but bullshit. Unless you’ve been to Oregon lately, and unless you’re willing to call Jacki a liar, it’s EXACTLY what happens here - with all due respect to your occupation. California and Oregon are NOT the same and you need to bear that in mind.

Bob,
Not calling her a liar at all…but she was giving what was at minimum second hand info. So who knows what really happened. All I gave was info regarding how they are generally done based on case law. Cali and Oregon are not the same, totally agree, but they do use the same 9th circut that makes rulings they both have to follow so they are very similar in some ways. Do you have any FIRST hand knowledge of how they are done? Have you been approached by a decoy or taken part in one? If not then you have no idea either and are going off what you’ve heard of read. At least I have experience with them and how they are run and that is what I am trying to get across. There is a TON of miss-information thanks to our wonderful internet. I am only trying to present the real facts, not something based off some internet lore or rumor.

23

In order to serve any alcohol in the state of Oregon, one must obtain an OLCC permit. There is a 45 day grace period to attend the class which is ~8 hours long and covers ID’s and counterfeits as well as identifying intoxicated customers and how to cut them off.

I’m always worried about the OLCC performing a sting in my establishment. We caught the guys last summer. They came in the bar as a duo. Upon entering, I looked at them and so did my bartender. Before even approaching the bar, they turned around and left only to nail the bar down the street. I feel very fortunate to have good employees who are very savvy when it comes to asking for identification. My bartender was a bouncer at a very busy night club in Portland for many years before moving out here so I have full confidence in him. I am still always on the lookout though.

About the sting on the coast and the well known retailer: A woman who appeared at least in her mid twenties showed up in hospital scrubs to buy a bottle of wine. She approached the counter with a bottle of Argentinian Malbec that retailed in the ~$20 range. He sold her the bottle and was nailed shortly there after. This retailer wasn’t trying (IMHO) to just take a quick sale. He’s been ITB for years and runs (IMO) the finest wine retail establishment on the coast. Bad luck, shitty timing, or completely fooled, I don’t know but it can happen to the best of us. I do know that it will never happen to him again.

24

I must also add that accepting fake ID’s will not necessarily get a license revoked. if the person looks of age and presents a good ID, it is the servers call whether or not to accept it according to their perception. An OLCC sting agent will never present a fake. In fact the easiest way to find out if the person is undercover is to ask them if they are over 21. By law, they cannot lie.

As far as asking to see someone’s ID, there are many creative ways to do this. One is flattery and most, if not all women love to have someone question their eligibility to drink alcohol. As far as men go, if they throw an attitude you already know what path you can avoid by not serving them in the first place. In my 2 1/2 years up here, I have yet to encounter one person unhappy that I called for an ID before serving them any form of alcohol.

As far as I’m concerned, if you are running a tight ship there is little to worry about.

25

Geoff,
Well said [good.gif]

26

27

You are a fast learner indeed [cheers.gif] from my original post…

They will not lie about their age and if asked will show valid ID to show you that they are under 21

28

Andy, we now have corroboration from Geoff . . . but let me get back to my point. I think the whole thing stinks and no, I am NOT advocating the sales of alcohol to those who are underage. Hell, everyone who is under thirty looks like a high school student to me, so I’d card 'me all. Parenthetically, I question why someone who is old enough to vote and get killed or maimed in the service of his country is, at the same time, not old enough to buy alcohol - but I digress.

Here’s my problem. This decoy stuff is, to me, the equivalent of hiding a sign that indicates a reduction in the speed limit from 45 mph to 25 mph behind a tree and nailing every driver who misses it with photo radar. It’s also proactive and smacks of police officers soliciting hookers in order to bust them for prostitution, which we know they can’t do or the case will get tossed because it’s entrapment.

My further problem is that the decoys - at the instruction and with the approval of law enforcement - are themselves breaking the law. They are sometimes - Carrie and Randy’s shop is an example - walking into premises where they are not allowed in an attempt to conduct a transaction they are not allowed to transact and, the minute they walk out the door, they are in possession of a substance they are not legally allowed to possess. We’re using lawbreakers to catch lawbreakers. Why don’t we just have decoys with unregistered firearms accost people on the street so we can arrest those who respond by pulling their own handguns for which they don’t have conceal/carry permits?

29

Probably the best sentence you have ever written that I have read.

30

I’m against this device as a means of enforcement, with all due respect to Andy and his law enforcement brethren.

They’ve been doing this in Santa Ynez for some time now, both in restaurants, and tasting rooms. They send the rat in (and sorry, but that’s what they are to me) to do a tasting or make a purchase, and they seem to pick times when the tasting room is busy. They present ID, which states their true age. In some cases, tasting room personnel take a cursory look at the ID, and begin to pour. Shame on them for that, but I mean, really, does anyone believe minors are going in to tasting rooms to get their alcohol? Would behavior change if the police discontinued these types of stings?

When the day comes that law enforcement has solved all crime, perhaps then they should resort to tricking otherwise innocent people into committing them. Until then, I say this is a wasted effort and not really the way I want to be served by an agency that WORKS FOR ME.

31

[give_heart.gif] [blush2.gif]

32

Heh. You’re right about that. :smiley:

I really have no trouble carding youngsters. Although, I agree with Bob here, I think the current drinking age is set too high, but no matter where it’s set, there will be a line somewhere that we’d need to observe. I do have a problem with the general idea of carding all customers just so I won’t get caught up in a sting operation. Maybe it’s that libertarian streak in me. “Papers, please” just isn’t a role I want to play in exchange for the government’s permission to sell my wares.

In any case though, Andy, I do want to thank you for weighing in on this, and for your thoughtful posts. It’s nice to have another perspective presented, and to learn from that, so thanks for that! [berserker.gif]

<practicing: “Are you over 21? Are you over 21? Are you over 21?”> [dance2.gif]

33

If I show up this afternoon do you promise to card me?

34

I will! [rofl.gif]

There is a constant paranoia about a sting and I know there is always a chance it can happen to me as we all have bad days. One good thing to also know is that OLCC tends to put their targeted area on their website so YOU, as an alcohol server, can have an idea if and when they will be in your area. I’ve learned that the stings tend to work their way up the coast. When I start hearing about stings in Newport or Lincoln City I get everyone aware.

I know the whole prep for a sting is shitty, especially if you get caught but not serving a minor can save your business in numerous ways as a drunk minor on the road who got wasted in your bar can have far worse repercussions that a $6K fine. I agree with the adage of old enough to serve/old enough to drink but honestly 21 year olds pose enough of a problem of over intoxication. This, unfortunately has more to do with the perception of alcohol as a forbidden fruit that this country has created. Perhaps if we followed the European model, these problems would digress. [shrug.gif]

35

Absolutely! And with a big grin, too. [taunt.gif]

36

Here’s my problem. This decoy stuff is, to me, the equivalent of hiding a sign that indicates a reduction in the speed limit from 45 mph to 25 mph behind a tree and nailing every driver who misses it with photo radar. It’s also proactive and smacks of police officers soliciting hookers in order to bust them for prostitution, which we know they can’t do or the case will get tossed because it’s entrapment.

My further problem is that the decoys - at the instruction and with the approval of law enforcement - are themselves breaking the law. They are sometimes - Carrie and Randy’s shop is an example - walking into premises where they are not allowed in an attempt to conduct a transaction they are not allowed to transact and, the minute they walk out the door, they are in possession of a substance they are not legally allowed to possess. We’re using lawbreakers to catch lawbreakers. Why don’t we just have decoys with unregistered firearms accost people on the street so we can arrest those who respond by pulling their own handguns for which they don’t have conceal/carry permits?

So lets get this straight…so then no more narcotics officers should no longer buy drugs (whats called a “buy-bust”) from drug dealers because they are breaking the law by buying drugs? Or how about the officer who can no longer speed to catch up to a violator becuase that breaks the law. Or how about the officer that can’t speed to get to your house to save you from an armed intruder. Or how about the detective that goes on line and poses as a little child to lure out a dangerous sexual predator. Get my point! Law enforecment is one of the only occupations in the US where we are authorized to break certain laws to enforce it. I.E. we can legally use force to effect an arrest where the normal person cannot. Sounds lame I know, but that is the way the laws and courts have decided. you and I may not agree to all or some of them, but it’s what we all have to work with.

Now you still didn’t answer my question as to what experience you have with alcohol decoys. You come off as all knowing by saying you know “Exactly” how they are done, but what experience do you actually have to back that up?


I agree with Bob here, I think the current drinking age is set too high, but no matter where it’s set, there will be a line somewhere that we’d need to observe.

I personally agree with you both on that. If we can send our 18 year old kids to die in a foreign country and allow them vote, and consider them an “adult” then they should be allowed to drink IMO.

I’m against this device as a means of enforcement, with all due respect to Andy and his law enforcement brethren.

no worries at all. We all have our opinions and I can respect that. I’m just busting Bob’s chops because he wrote some replies like he has factual first hand experience in how they are run…something I don’t think is the case, but we’ll let him chime in on that one.

37

Jesus Andy, take a chill pill. First of all, I’m not coming down on Five-0 in general, I’m coming down on underage decoys, especially the way it’s apparently done on Oregon - see Gregg’s story, which corroborates what Jacki had related. I’m also not talking about POLICE OFFICERS breaking the law, I’m talking about non-sworn, underage people breaking the law in order to catch people breaking the law, and yes - to me that’s entrapment. It’s a GOTCHA of the worst variety. Apparently the Ninth Circuit disagrees with me from what you say, and I have no reason to doubt you. I still think it’s chickenshit, which is my bottom line.

Never said that and didn’t mean to imply it. You’re misquoting me, but you’ve also gone to great lengths to talk about how things are done in California and that’s fine, but don’t assume, as you have, that the Oregon Liquor Control Commission does things the same way the as the California ABC, because it doesn’t necessarily happen - Ninth Circuit or not. The OLCC is a neo-Puritan organization that has more freaking convoluted rules and regulations than you can even imagine - Jacki’s example of not being able to taste her own wine to see if it’s flawed being only one of them.