I don’t drink a lot of Pinot Noir nowadays but I used to. The Oregon PNs can be excellent but I usually get the Sta. Rita Hills ones now : good values can be had. RTPL
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I take issue the idea that one is a substitute for another. I have had only Oregon Pinot Noirs, all of them in the last year, got to like a few, but I see little resemblance to Burgundy. And if you want to draw irrelevant comparisons with thirst quenching beverages, I hear Coke is cheaper, and water is free.
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I’d disagree. It is fair to compare the relative value of the two regions and thus substitute. We do it all the time with the so called daily drinkers. It’s never an exact one to one substitute, but you’re sacrificing quality for cost. I’m sure many people on this board would love to drink DRC or Screagle or what have you on a daily basis, but most will substitute with significantly cheaper wines.
I do get what I think is your point though: Oregon is not Burgundy, just as Washington isn’t Bordeaux, and frankly no region is a 1 to 1 match with another.
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I am not sure it makes sense to compare region to region in terms of the exact taste of the typical wine from that region. If the wine is expressive of terroir in any measure, then it will be difficult to make the same thing somewhere else. (I guess the exception is super extracted/manufactured wines.) For me, it is more about the overall experience. Is this making me pause and say, wow, this is interesting/delicious/expressive/etc. Using that as the measure, I have had some Oregon and CA pinots that have done that for me – more from Oregon, though my experience with OR pinots is woefully deficient. I will say that I am finding Oregon Chards to be really excellent values. Just lovely examples out there. They make me happy. That might be true for some top white burgundy, but those are out of my budget and so, unless a generous friend wants to try to educate me, I will stick with what impresses me at the moment.
I am not in the “change my mind business”, but my view is that Oregon Pinot is wonderful and I agree that the trends suggest continued increase in quality. My reality is that I stopped buying Burg about 8 years ago because the return on my drinking investment was really poor (inconsistent quality, bottle variation high, and price/risk ratio high). I still hold several cases of 1996’s in the cellar and they are beautiful, but I think I miss the illusion of Great Burgundy more than the reality (more than any other region in the world, I have pulled what should have been a great bottle and was disappointed). Circling back to the conversation, Oregon is probably already producing as many good Pinots as Burg…but the mystic will never overcome the hype. And those who have invested good coin in Burg will never let the myth die. Now that I have committed heresy, I shall go beg for forgiveness.
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As Willamette Valley Pinot winemaker who is inspired by burgundy, there are a host of issues to discuss but first off, I think both regions will continue to do well and second we don’t directly compare due to a host of factors (below) and as mentioned, we don’t need to directly compete due to cost/retail pricing differences. (My family is French and I spent summers and two years of high school in France, then chose to live in the U.S.— my aunt Marie-Paule and uncle Christian had a deep wine cellar that focused on Burgundy Pinot and Champagne and at 17, this started my love of wine…).
But it is always compelling to compare the two regions. From my perspective from trips and tastings in Burgundy vs. Oregon I feel that we do quite well but there are a number of caveats and factors that will never make the two directly comparable. 1) The terroir in Burgundy is incredibly diverse (the most diverse appellation in the world?). We have lots of diversity in the Willamette Valley but nothing to compare with Burgundy. So this makes comparisons difficult for sure (which wines will you chose to compare?). 2) I feel that for Pinots years 1-10 we do quite well, and many Oregon Pinots will cellar extremely well, but I there is something special about 10, 20, 30+ year old Burgundies that I have not found in other Pinot regions. I have thought about this a lot and believe that proper cellaring at or below 55F might be a big factor (hardly ever possible in most new world cellars, but definitely a key component of the best Burgundy Domaines… that said, cellar temps are rising in Burgundy due to climate change… so this will be interesting to track). 3) there are a host of wine making decisions/techniques/process issues to discuss but if I had to summarize, I think Burgundy estates have more incentive (due to pricing and consumer expectations) to start off with more extraction (more tannin and other phenolics), more acidity, and even more SO2 additions to protect the wines because they are rewarded for longevity more than we are. When tasting a young wine in Burgundy the vigneron will start by telling you that the wine is too young to enjoy.
As for a changing climate, harvest dates in Burgundy and other regions in Europe have dramatically shifted (August harvests), more than in Oregon. But extreme weather events are also a big factor: in Burgundy more “extreme hail events”; early bud break followed by freeze events; extreme heat events; etc. And for us, smoke from wildfires for the first time in the Willamette Valley(!); extreme heat events, etc. Extreme weather events are the big unknown in the short to medium term in my opinion.
Vive la différence!
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don’t want to change your mind. Less competition.
I know the conversation here has focused on Pinot, but to be honest, if the work that folks like Goodfellow and Walter Scott are doing is any indication, I’d think that Chardonnay is more likely to get their first (i.e., overtaking Burgundy).
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This past Sunday, I poured a 2005 Patricia Green Notorious blind next to a 2010 Fourrier GC Corbeaux (oops, I misstated the name, it was the Champeaux) for four fellow Berserkers who drink a fair bit of Burgundy. Everyone guessed Burgundy and raved about the quality and that opinion wasn’t changed by a lovely but tight 2005 Clos des Lambrays in the next flight. I don’t know whether Oregon will ever produce wines that surpass the best vintages of RC, La Tache, or Musigny in the hands of the best producers, but I’ve had a few that will give good grand crus from great producers a run for their money.
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Fourrier Gevrey Chambertin les Corbeaux???.. Did you buy this from Rudy K? This wine does NOT exist… Fourrier Only 1er crus are Cherbaudes, Goulots, Champeaux, Combe aux moines and Clos St Jacques… Pick your choice before you post next blind tasting result…
2005 Clos des Lambrays either too young or will never be excellent. Jury still out.
Can’t say anything about the Oregon (?) wine, it may be excellent!
Sorry, I misstated the name and have corrected it. You don’t have to be an ass about it. And the 2005 Lambrays is already excellent, particularly with air. Have you ever even had it and if so, how recently? Or is it that the only reason it could be outshone by an Oregon wine is that it is either closed or subpar? I think you’re showing an ugly mixture of ignorance and bias here.
well said bob. I think chardonnay is already there at a certain level. It’s not going to replace Coche Dury/Raveneau clos etc, but it’s in the mix to topple a lot of the village/1er bottlings from even very good burgundy producers.
“There is no denying the fact” that people who make definitive comments like this know very little about wine.
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Climatologists would probably disagree with you. Global warming is a severely accelerated change that only really began at the point where significant worldwide industrialization occurred. Maybe 100 years, and of those 100, the situation has beccome considerably worse in the last half century.
Burgundy averaged one August harvest per century, and has had 5 in 20 years so far this century. It’s not my place to comment on the nature of Burgundy, but severe changes worldwide are predicted by 2050, rather than 3020.
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Sorry if I offended you. Fourrier Champeaux is an excellent wine indeed… Ref Oregon, I acknowledge my ignorance and only drink some when advised/chosen by somebody having knowledge. I have had a few very good, never superb but my sampling is too small to draw conclusions.
I have a 6 packs of clos des Lambrays 2005 and have been advised not to open it now because it was disappointing. Glad you liked it. This gives hope for the future
For no other reason that nobody in the world can afford Burgundy!
Agree. I have had a lot of Burgundy wines under $50.00 that underwhelmed me (yes there were some good ones) but most of the Oregon Pinots I have had under $50 are very good to excellent values.
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If you believe in continued global warming (and I do), then won’t the Willamette Valley also continue to get warmer? It’s not just an issue in Burgundy.
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I’m puzzled at what people want to achieve with these threads. Some people are really trying to argue that Burgundy is too expensive without saying it. OK, fine. Other people are trying to argue that Oregon is already better on a QPR ratio, which I always find a bizarre argument because I don’t drink wine to win some kind of QPR award. Yet other people will respond by insisting that those who can’t find value in Burgundy are idiots - it is legitimately hard to find value in Burgundy if you want to spend no more than $50; this is true (I think there’s otherwise plenty of great value in Burgundy).
At the end of the day, if Oregon begins to produce wines that are as good or better than Burgundy that will be GREAT. Terrific! At the moment, I don’t think it does. Could it? Sure! As Yogi Berra said, it’s tough making predictions, especially about the future. For those people who adopt the stance of “Oregon is as good or better than your Fourrier, fight me” - I don’t want to fight you. I just want to drink my Fourrier.
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I think the people who complain about QPR in Burgundy are focused on this part of it - the $50 and below. And given the cost of importing Burgundy (you have to move the stuff across an ocean!) there is always going to be a limited return on the lower end stuff. I think village Burgundy is the wrong place to look for “value” in Burgundy, really. But there is plenty of great Burgundy once you move up a bit in price, and as far as QPR - it all depends on what you want to pay for wine. If you don’t want to spend more than $40, yes Burgundy will be tough. But I don’t get the sense Oregon producers are giving away their top cuvees for free these days either - and that’s not in any way a knock on them.
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