If I had to hazard a guess as to why Wes says it’s important to differentiate between oxidative and non-oxidative:
Because generally they taste differently, come across differently.
Absolutely, Karl. Skin-contact whites made in an oxidative fashion (as are many from Georgia) are, usually, quite different
than those raised in a non-oxidative fashion. I, in general, prefer the latter to the former, but not necessarily across the board.
I find it’s just an interesting genre of white and the skin-contact adds an interesting facet to the wine.
With extended skin-contact (weeks & months), you can wind up w/ wines that are quite dominated by the phenolic/resiny character
and are (or can be) very tannic/austere on the palate. With minimal skin-contact (days to a week or two), the phenolic character is
more subdued and you have more of the fruit flavor coming thru. The skin-contact whites that can find that right balance between
phenolic character and fruit character are the ones that I tend to like the most. The Solminer skin-contact Gruner is one such recent
one that I was mightly impressed with.
And, unlike the direct-to-press whites, how these skin-contact whites (oxidative or non-oxidative) age is a whole lot less predictable.
JimCowan’s ISA is one that evolved in a manner I would never have guessed.
I find that many of these skin-contact whites badly need to have food to accompany them, especially if the phenolics dominate.
They can sometimes be very unpleasant to taste on their own. Much like Rancio os SousVoile Jura whites.
But I’m excited to follow all these experiments with skin-contact whites. It adds a whole nuther dimension to my wine world.
Tom
But for example oxidatively aged (i.e. barrel-aged) Chablis tastes very differently from reductively aged (i.e. stainless steel tanks) Chablis, yet nobody differentiates them. Or Champagne where the base wine is aged in barrels with malo vs. aged in stainless steel without malo. Or dozens of other wine regions or styles.
I understand how skin contact white / orange / amber wines can be made in various styles, but I really don’t understand should be treated differently.
Well put, Tom.
(Although very rarely I’ve tasted wines that are unpleasant on their own!)
Well, Otto… I’m not sure that I’d label a wine made in barrel as “oxidative”. Certainly, they get more O2 uptake than when aged in SS. But the
conditions you find in barrel is pretty reductive I think. It’s probably all a matter of degree.
Most makers of skin-contact whites will put them to barrel and raise them under non-oxidative conditions, even though they’re in barrel.
These don’t have what I’d call “oxidative” character like you find in amphorae-raised skin-contact whites.
Even the Jura Sous Voille Chards don’t have an “oxidative” character to me as the flor yeast prevents them from oxidizing. Though the
flor yeast character is there that some associate w/ oxidation.
Tom
I’m saying there’s a need for specific terms for those styles to bring some clarity. The majority of the orange wines imported and made here are not great. That’s the impression most people who’ve tried them here have, as evidenced by Tran’s post I was replying to.
I think plenty of people differentiate between Champagnes aged in barrrel versus not.
Including many here.
Agree that it’s definitely a matter of degree. Aging on the lees gives the wines a reductive character and the best way to balance that is to find that fine-tuned balance between the oxidative qualities of barrel-aging and the reductive qualities the lees bring. Certainly the oxidation is less and less influential the bigger the vessels are.
Most makers of skin-contact whites will put them to barrel and raise them under non-oxidative conditions, even though they’re in barrel.
These don’t have what I’d call “oxidative” character like you find in amphorae-raised skin-contact whites.
Even the Jura Sous Voille Chards don’t have an “oxidative” character to me as the flor yeast prevents them from oxidizing. Though the
flor yeast character is there that some associate w/ oxidation.
Tom
Vin Jaunes and sous voile whites of Jura certainly have oxidative character: it takes relatively long time for the voile to appear and during this time the wine oxidizes to a small degree, resulting in the distinctive yellow color of the wine and they nutty rancio aromatics typical of the style. This is quite obvious if you compare the Jura wines to the pale, limpid Fino Sherries which are protected by the flor from the day one, showing only the aldehydic flor / voile character but very little oxidative character.
Once the voile forms, it protects the wine from the oxygen to some degree, but only from the headspace - not from the oxygen that permeates the wood. However, this latter part is very small - especially due to the barrels being very old and neutral, making them less permeable to the oxygen compared to new oak barrels.
The oxidative character that comes from oak aging is quite obvious in the wines of R. Lopez de Heredia. Even Viña Gravonia that ages the shortest amount of time in barrels shows noticeable oxidative character with its nutty tones, honeyed and resinous aromas and deep golden color. It’s not oxidative like a Tawny Port, Oloroso Sherry or Vi Rancio, but obviously a lot more oxidative than your typical white. And it is still aged in old, neutral barrels that are less permeable to oxygen, in a reductive environment on the lees and consistently topped up.
That makes more sense. Because I remember you saying earlier “Orange wines are skin fermented whites that have oxidized in the winemaking process” and that certainly wasn’t the case. I have no idea what stuff is imported and made there, but I’ve had lots of great orange wines here, this side of the pond. Some of them oxidative, some of them not, but great nonetheless. And, certainly, numerous less successful ones, unclean, thoroughly oxidized, badly made or just plain dull and boring wines. However, I’ve never seen the oxidative style here a major watershed in regard to the style.
Yes, me too. But they are still all Champagne. From what I understood, I though Wes wanted to think of oxidative (“oxidized”, even) and non-oxidative/reductive orange wines as two completely separate styles and I still really don’t understand why. And where. Nomenclature? In the labels? When people talk about wines?
Actually, skin contact on white wines is and remains traditional, in the Jura, Georgia, and elsewhere, as Tom mentioned. In other cases, like Gravner, or Abe at Scholium, he was reviving an older tradition that lapsed. I myself happen to like at least some of the wines, especially when not overdone or when long aging has taken off some of the edges.
+1 to everything else, but to my understanding Jura has no tradition of skin contact winemaking with white grapes. And I can’t ever remember having a skin-contact Jura wine, although I guess there must be some by now.
All in all, France has very little history with skin-contact whites.
Generaly speaking skin contact on not over-ripe white grapes doesn’t lead to any orange or amber colour unless one does intensive extraction combined with aeration of the fermenting must.
A very good exemple of a very long (more than 8 months) though reductive skin contact white wine that doesn’t show any dark or orange colour is Elisabeta Foradori’s Fontanasanta Nosiola.
Yup, Eric…exactly the example I was thinking of. And yet that Nosiola does not come across as highly phenolic.
Tom
[quoteThey’re 6 months ahead down there mate, and that’s not one for any significant barrel aging.][/quote]
Aware of the sixth months but that is still very quick to have Southern Hemisphere wines in the market the same year grapes were grown. I would imagine there are a ton of the Kim Crawford 17s still on shelves at Total Wine and grocery store shops.
Ok, I get this…But though I’m sure that Eric knows more, aren’t there wines from Friuli, Slovenia etc that are orange owing to skin contact?
If you talk to just about anyone here who’s heard of or tried an orange wine, it’s synonymous with oxidized. The signature orange tint is from oxidized color pigments. I’m saying orange wines are a subset of skin contact whites. Our Pinot Gris is pink. Our Grenache Blanc is lightly golden. Why would we call those orange wines? They aren’t orange. They don’t have the characteristics people associate with orange wines. Hipsters would think it’s a bait and switch and be as upset as they get when someone slips them a non-bretty natural wine. 
Normal people would just not buy them due to preconceptions that don’t fit them. So, we say what they are rather than using an inapt term.
Lol …that place is literally around the corner away from me. Always been tempted to go in just for kicks.
How dead? Got our first request from somebody today asking if we have any or where they could get some. The other clue was when she asked if I could tell her why it’s better than grape wine.
Ok. That was funny.
That’s a good reason to use “amber wine” instead of “orange wine”, along with it being a more accurate translation and description. A friend of mine makes orange wine, lemon wine, mandarin wine, grapefruit wine… Sometimes quite good.
We’d normally start to see Rieslings from the current year appearing around June. By the time we get to the last quarter of the year there is a fair bit of current year stuff on the market.