On a wine, what (other than oak) makes it taste like oak??

WINE TALK
1

I’m oak-sensitive, I guess. I can’t stand it, and the less a wine has, the better I like it.

As per the recent notes on the Palmina Dolcetto, I got oak/cedar chips, yet it is made in neutral oak. It wasn’t vanilla, either, and not just the spiciness of the grape, which was quite present as well.

What else, other than new oak, can cause this in a flavor profile?

2

I suppose it depends on what you define as oak in the wine. So many people say that for a lot of things sort of like ‘barnyard’ for anything that doesn’t smell like fruit. Cedar to me wouldn’t be oak but a natural and desired trait in many grapes. Its one of the things getting pushed aside in favor of ripe berry flavors so often these days though. So things I attribute to new oak are vanilla, charred coffee/espresso, coconut, dill and often a very soft feel on the wine.

All that being said I can’t speak to Dolcetto specifically since I have only a couple isolated experiences with it.

3

i suspect that even neutral oak can impart something to a wine – not necessarily flavor but aroma and texture. i’m sure that if one compared the same wine done in stainless steel versus neutral oak, one would notice a difference.

4

It isn’t barnyard - no ‘animale’ or horse poop - it’s wood. All the years I spent splitting wood at my grandfather’s cottage has me never forgetting the smell of wood - both freshly split and dried on the rack for the fire.

I suppose some of the acid could some off with the same bitter edge that new oak brings out, but it had an actual ‘flavor’ as well, which is what confused me.

5

Todd - not really sure. I can hazard a couple of guesses though:

  1. Winemakers describe neutral barrels as anything other than a “new” barrel. So technically this could have seen some once used or twice used barrels. Those barrels still impart some influence in terms of flavor, texture and tannin.

  2. Some grapes just have that. Syrah can exhibit woody notes to me and so does Grenache. Could be the level of acidity too that exerts some influence.

I would personally ascribe point #1 more often than not. Although I have seen many a very neutral Grenache show some “woody” notes

6

I haven’t had very many dolcettos, but I know nebbiolos will often have a cedary, resinous character that comes from the grape or vineyard … depending on how you define the wood character–is it fresh cut fir as opposed to air dried walnut?–it could be a somewhat green/herbaceous character that has deeper tones, like the rosemary wood character I get from some cabs that have also been done in neutral oak. Cabs, by the way, are not immune to the herb-wood character; it doesn’t always come from the oak program. I personally, like it a lot, in moderation, and prefer cabs with some herbaceousness.

7

Just a shot in the dark, but stem inclusion could be mistaken for oak/wood as well. A recent and popular example of this would be the Rhys/Alesia 2006 San Mateo Pinot.

8

Specifically in the Dolcetto, I suspect is was the acids in the wine. Lots of varieties could have traits that - unless made in a very fruity style - could give the impression of oak. Is this always a taste thing for you, or do you pick it up on the nose equally?

9

Certain yeasts can make wine taste oaky.
Best, Jim

10

11

It wasn’t stem inclusion, and the winemaker’s notes do state they are destemmed.

Must have been the acids or some yeast of some sort.

12

A lot of woodsy flavors like cedar, eucalyptus, and rosemary aren’t oak… they’re natural components of a wine’s bouquet. The flavors that I most strongly associate with over-oaked wine are creamy caramel, butter, or vanilla. A good illustration is to take two Chards made by the same winemaker from the same fruit and fermented the same way (ML or no ML), but with one new-oaked and one unoaked. The former is usually very buttery, while the latter has less creaminess and more bright fruit (apple, lemon, whatever). I tasted two wines this way at a local winery several years ago, and it was very illustrative.

13

Like what Jim said. “Leesiness” can lend an “oaky” taste to wine.

14

Mike, so true. everybody seemed to love this wine and I thought it needed lots of time for the stems to integrate. Todd I’ve had the Palmina quite a few times and get a strong cedar influence, but think that it is a vineyard characteristic as it doesn’t seem overly oaked to me.

15

Joe, this wine doesn’t have stem inclusion, according to the winemaker’s notes…

Maybe my sense of oak and yours with stem inclusion is just part of the zaniness of Dolcetto…

16

Todd, I was referring to Mike’s post about the Alesia. I think the Palmina Dolcetto has a cedar characteristic that comes from the vineyard- I’m oak sensitive as well, but this wine seems pretty tasty to me.

17

Joe, no question it is tasty - I wish I had more…it’s a great food wine

18

I remeber drinking some Pride Viognier that tasted like it bathed in oak. Turns out the wine does not even touch a barrel!!! [shrug.gif]

Otto

19

the mere thought of Foley creates oak.

20

[highfive.gif] Can’t argue there with you Charlie, the reason after a few years I dropped off their list. [bye2.gif]