Older Bordeauxs 50+ years vs newer <50 year old?

[RMann]

As I understand it, 1947 was a very ripe vintage for the time. 1981 was a fairly good but not great vintage.

Thanks for the additional info. I knew 81 was not supposed to be “great” but it was a birthday vintage and we still enjoyed it!

[RMann]

A correct bottle of the 1947 should be quite a lot richer and more muscular than the 1981, and look like this:

Great photo! Thanks for sharing.

[RMann]

Something’s not adding up here -

A Seattle Somm told me that something had changed that raised the sugars of the older ones but not the more “recent” vintages

vs.

We were all amazed at how fresh and light the 1947 was



actually a little lighter/sweeter/a little more like a burgundy than the 1981, which was a true, full Bordeaux

No doubt '47 is a vintage with higher sugars than '81, which is the kind of year that used to get the faint praise of “typical.” But higher sugars translate to a fuller body, not a lighter one, and a well-kept '47 should still be very full.

Also no doubt a lot changed between '47 and '81, usually for the worse. This was the period of industrialization, chemicals, overcropping, etc. Many from the '60s and '70s taste older than their counterparts from the '40s and '50s.

Hi Keith, thanks for the thoughtful reply, and I wondered the same thing, so thought to get input from the group here.

[RMann]

That’s beautiful!

It tastes as good as it looks!

[RMann]

That’s beautiful!

It tastes as good as it looks!

As was this . . . .



D28A57D0-E7A2-4BB2-ACE8-46A172DF1BA5.jpeg

Nice! Thanks for sharing the photo!

[RMann]

Something’s not adding up here -

A Seattle Somm told me that something had changed that raised the sugars of the older ones but not the more “recent” vintages

vs.

We were all amazed at how fresh and light the 1947 was



actually a little lighter/sweeter/a little more like a burgundy than the 1981, which was a true, full Bordeaux

No doubt '47 is a vintage with higher sugars than '81, which is the kind of year that used to get the faint praise of “typical.” But higher sugars translate to a fuller body, not a lighter one, and a well-kept '47 should still be very full.

Also no doubt a lot changed between '47 and '81, usually for the worse. This was the period of industrialization, chemicals, overcropping, etc. Many from the '60s and '70s taste older than their counterparts from the '40s and '50s.

This may all be true Keith, including your implication that the somm was full of #%^* on his sugar theory as a general phenom, but 81 Haut Brion is also a really good wine and far from done maturing.

Thanks for the add-on Jayson. I respect the somms at Canlis but didn’t understand that part. And the '81 was really good as you suggest, even if it doesn’t get the ratings of the '82s.

[RMann]

yep, people with perfect provenance '47 First Growth sell them through Winebid.
That’s the ticket!

I get the take on the perfect provenance claim, but it is possible that we’ll-stored old wines get placed on WineBid.

It could be considered, as well: do the best placements get snapped up by insiders?

Hi Karl! As stated above, sorry for the “perfect” phrasing. Already apologized for that and in fact deleted it. They were of good provenance per the documentation and inspection procedures as posted on the site.

To be clear on my purchases on the site: I have to bid like everyone else, and I decide what I’m willing to pay using the same info that everyone else has. In fact, on both bottles mentioned, I ended up having to bid around over 20% of the initial reserve. I win some, I lose some. But there is no “snapping up” of anything by insiders.

Any thoughts on the older Haut Brions vs younger ones much appreciated.

[RMann]

Took out the objectionable phrasing in the question. Appreciating everyone’s considered thoughts on the wines, and also newer 2000+ vintages, as well as the photos.

[RMann]

My experience with great Bordeaux is it ages by eventually “shedding” its tannins and the brawniness of youth and gaining bottle sweetness, which all just means a slow set of chemical reactions in bottle, often getting fresher and more detailed and more open with age. And ‘47 was a riper vintage than ‘81 to begin with as observed above.

Your take therefore is probably spot on but also isn’t very surprising. I’ve had 81 Haut Brion a couple times, and it’s maybe the best 1981 Bordeaux. Or at least the best of a couple dozen I’ve had. I wouldn’t be surprised if good bottles age for a long time and become fresher and sweeter.

Hi Jayson, I missed this first post. This is the best explanation received yet. Thanks for the detailed thoughts, and thoughts on the '81- my fiance will be happy to hear that.

[Ray.Tuppa_sch]

My experience with great Bordeaux is it ages by eventually “shedding” its tannins and the brawniness of youth and gaining bottle sweetness, which all just means a slow set of chemical reactions in bottle, often getting fresher and more detailed and more open with age. And ‘47 was a riper vintage than ‘81 to begin with as observed above.

Your take therefore is probably spot on but also isn’t very surprising. I’ve had 81 Haut Brion a couple times, and it’s maybe the best 1981 Bordeaux. Or at least the best of a couple dozen I’ve had. I wouldn’t be surprised if good bottles age for a long time and become fresher and sweeter.

Hi Jayson, I missed this first post. This is the best explanation received yet. Thanks for the detailed thoughts, and thoughts on the '81- my fiance will be happy to hear that.

It is also my experience that the '81 Haut Brion is one of, if not the best Bordeaux I’ve had from the vintage. For me, Haut Brion is the most consistent Chateau year in and year out for vintages 2000 and prior (I have little experience with Bordeaux post 2000).

[RMann]

My experience with great Bordeaux is it ages by eventually “shedding” its tannins and the brawniness of youth and gaining bottle sweetness, which all just means a slow set of chemical reactions in bottle, often getting fresher and more detailed and more open with age. And ‘47 was a riper vintage than ‘81 to begin with as observed above.

Your take therefore is probably spot on but also isn’t very surprising. I’ve had 81 Haut Brion a couple times, and it’s maybe the best 1981 Bordeaux. Or at least the best of a couple dozen I’ve had. I wouldn’t be surprised if good bottles age for a long time and become fresher and sweeter.

Hi Jayson, I missed this first post. This is the best explanation received yet. Thanks for the detailed thoughts, and thoughts on the '81- my fiance will be happy to hear that.

It is also my experience that the '81 Haut Brion is one of, if not the best Bordeaux I’ve had from the vintage. For me, Haut Brion is the most consistent Chateau year in and year out for vintages 2000 and prior (I have little experience with Bordeaux post 2000).

That’s good to know. We’ve tried the Lafite '81 and it was also great, but a little more barnyard and mushroom than the HB. We have a Margaux and Latour yet to try- may wait to do those side by side for a special occasion. Sounds like we may be disappointed after the HB, but we’ll see. Happy tasting and sharing and thanks for the insights.

[Craig_G]

There are plenty of good 81s if you like the style. They won’t be as good as HB but in recent years I’ve really enjoyed La Conseillante, Pichon Lalande, Gruaud Larose, Pichon Baron, and Haut Bailly.

With respect to the older wines, I suspect some could have a bit of oxidation which might give some impression of sweetness in an otherwise sound wine. Even if not, lots of great older wines seem to age into a softer, more Burgundian place as you described. I’m not sure it means there was anything fundamentally different about the wine to begin with. The great Haut Brions of more recent years might go that same way eventually.

[RMann]

There are plenty of good 81s if you like the style. They won’t be as good as HB but in recent years I’ve really enjoyed La Conseillante, Pichon Lalande, Gruaud Larose, Pichon Baron, and Haut Bailly.

With respect to the older wines, I suspect some could have a bit of oxidation which might give some impression of sweetness in an otherwise sound wine. Even if not, lots of great older wines seem to age into a softer, more Burgundian place as you described. I’m not sure it means there was anything fundamentally different about the wine to begin with. The great Haut Brions of more recent years might go that same way eventually.

Wow! Your description of “softer”/“Burgundian” is exactly what we tasted with that specific '47. Great insight, thanks for the tips on the other great '81s to watch for.

[Mel_Knox]

First, Canlis is a restaurant that should be better known by wine lovers. The cellar is amazing and as I recall, the prices are quite fair. I haven’t been there for a while. Is there a restuarnat like this in California?? One that has, for example, multiple vintages of both Washington and Napa cabernets??

Second, the differences between Bordeaux of the 40s, 50s and 60s and now are huge and I could fill a book on this. In the 70s the wine business, ie prices, took off and this enabled the chateaux to do many things, inc triage of the grapes, creation of second and third labels for the lesser cuvees, better equipment, more work in the vineyards. A big difference for me, a barrel pimp,is that in the late 80s and early 90s wineries there started to put the wines through ML in barrel, rather than in tank. The results are a different expression and a more rapid integration of oak.

What your somm friend meant about the sugars of different vintages is unclear to me.

[Robert.A.Jr]

in the late 80s and early 90s wineries there started to put the wines through ML in barrel, rather than in tank. The results are a different expression and a more rapid integration of oak.

Thanks, Mel.

For the non-geeks here - as in me - can you explain this more, how it works?

[JLee]

First, Canlis is a restaurant that should be better known by wine lovers. The cellar is amazing and as I recall, the prices are quite fair. I haven’t been there for a while. Is there a restuarnat like this in California?? One that has, for example, multiple vintages of both Washington and Napa cabernets??

Second, the differences between Bordeaux of the 40s, 50s and 60s and now are huge and I could fill a book on this. In the 70s the wine business, ie prices, took off and this enabled the chateaux to do many things, inc triage of the grapes, creation of second and third labels for the lesser cuvees, better equipment, more work in the vineyards. A big difference for me, a barrel pimp,is that in the late 80s and early 90s wineries there started to put the wines through ML in barrel, rather than in tank. The results are a different expression and a more rapid integration of oak.

What your somm friend meant about the sugars of different vintages is unclear to me.

I don’t know that the current wine list prices at Canlis are “fair,” although some regions seem to be marked up more than others.

[Mel_Knox]

I have not been to Canlis for five years so what do I know?? At that time I thought there was nothing in California to compare to their list.

[Mel_Knox]

When Californian winemakers started to visit Burgundy they discovered that the vignerons put the wines through ML in barrel. So they said to themselves, Hmm, what if I tried this on my BX cepages?? In 1986 I visited chateaux in Bordeaux and the two winemakers I was with, John Hawley and Dave Ramey, asked the Bordelais about this…I saw them eyeing the pitchforks…Seven years later they started to adapt this practice. So instead of getting cigar box aromas by putting clean wine into new barrels they get a more integrated oak flavor–in other words, less obvious oak-- and a wine they can show to buyers when people come to taste en primeur.