New to buying older wines

WINE TALK
21

I mean if you’re a Pinotage lover I’d say you can gamble with just about anything short of seeing actual live bugs in the wine and you’ll be satisified… [cheers.gif]

22

Sounds like you are looking on WineBid. My suggestion woud be to wait til next week because there really isn’t anyting appealing up for bid this week that doesn’t have leakage problems.

23

Great point. I’ve been slowly trying more and more older bottles but nothing this old yet (oldest was a 1980 Ridge Monte Bello). I have enjoyed the ones I’ve tried so far.

I’ve noticed that watching a number of different sites that far less 1972s seem to come up for auction as compared with other years in the late 60s and early 70s. Now I know why.

Touché

Yeah that’s where I’ve been watching lately. I’ve bought some other stuff from them and been happy but nothing this old.


I really appreciate all the insight and suggestions from everyone.

24

First of all, you need to be timely. I just got back from Orlando watching my Wolverines annihilate (ESPN’s word) the Gators in the Citrus Bowl and I could have brought a 1972 Drouhin Corton with me to share that I have probably had since the late 1970s.

My experience buying older wines is that it is a crap shoot no matter what but you get more sevens than snake eyes. Wine tends to be more resilient and forgiving of bad handling than you might expect. See my thread here:

I have rolled the dice on auction items with SOS (signs of seepage) and all sorts of stuff without being disappointed. The biggest issue for me is color, which is hard to tell through colored glass. If a red wine looks brownish through green glass, my experience is that it is probably bad. If a white wine looks brown or reddish through glass, I will run the other way. However, depressed corks and slightly raised corks can be caused by so many things that, IMHO, they are not good indicators. The other thing is to focus on wines with staying power, although I have had 30 year old Beaujolais that were quite good and I got a 20 year Macon Villages at auction (a three bottle lot for $10 that I bought as a curiosity) that turned out to be quite good for the first 15 minutes, until it turned.

25

+1… sort of tricky will so many different shades of glass and wine color densities, but a pretty solid indicator.

26

Luckily you won’t find that because nothing can live in Pinotage! Or survive drinking it without suffering some damage.

Arv makes a good point - make sure you even like wines that old before buying a few! If the Burgundies were good that year, which I certainly don’t know, maybe that is a place to look. It was a pretty poor year in Rioja but sometimes that means you can find good whites from there - I’ve had some from 1971 and 1972 that were stellar.

27

If looking for 1972 vintage wines, the Musar is legendary and for good reason, though Musar in general has a higher than average level I bottle variation.

28

Good point. I think the 1972 may have been the wine that Frank Prial reviewed in the NYT Magazine article that brought Musar to the American stage. I last had it about 20 years ago and it was outstanding.

29

The most important things for me, way above anything else, are avoiding bottles with signs of seepage and/or protruding corks, and buying from a reputable source. I’m sure there have been threads on this you could find by searching, but a few that come to mind are HDH, K&L, Benchmark, and Chambers Street. Good sellers are extremely concerned with provenance, and as was already pointed out, they’re in a position to learn far more about the provenance of the wines they’re sourcing than you probably are. If you follow those two rules and basically nothing else, you’ll have good odds with older wines.

30

While frequently true there are exceptions with leakers. If the seepage is light and self seals quickly like a scab the damage can be none to minimal. The fill level than becomes a secondary indicator.

As an example I am sipping on a phenomenal glass of 1990 Sociando Mallet. I bought upon release and stored properly however the cork got saturated and had slight seepage which scabbed over. The fill level was still in the lower neck of the bottle which is fine for a wine a quarter century old.

This bottle is drinking incredibly well and takes a couple of hours to open up and blossom. If the level is good, the cork is at a correct level and the price is low then it just might be worth the adventure.

31

I’d have concerns if a label was faded as if it were exposed to sunlight / bright light. I’m told this is very much an danger with old champagne, but champagne is not something I buy drink particularly mature (a decade tops for my modest drinking of it).

1972 vintage does indeed narrow down the possibilities, so good to see some suggestions above

The only other comment, is that yes it can be a bit of a crap shoot with older wines, so don’t expect brilliance in every bottle (unless you’re Nicos!) or even every other bottle. The ones that shine bright, shine very bright indeed though, and the ones that are just ‘still alive’ can often be very enjoyable if you don’t mind looking past the odd failing.

regards
Ian

32

Yes, but from my experience (and that of many other people I’ve talked to about this and who have posted here on the subject), the odds are way too bad to take the chance of buying such a bottle. A few good bottles with signs of seepage do not mean they’re likely to be good. I would never buy a bottle with signs of seepage unless it was incredibly cheap.

33

I’m picky and only buy wines described as having really good fills and no signs of leakage. I know low fills isn’t the kiss of death but why risk it. Don’t care about scuffs and capsule corrosion unless, I can get a cleaner more perfect btl for same price. I have only bought back to 85 and even that far back makes me queasy. Guess I’m an untrusting, low risk, selective, old wine buyer. Had good luck at HDH and TCWC so far. Mixed results at some other places thought be very reliable.

34

What do people here consider a “protruding cork?”

I looked at a bottle of '83 Bordeaux from a reputable chateau the other day and the cork felt a little higher to me than other bottles I was looking at. It was barely visible to the eye and didn’t deform the capsule but I could tell from touching the top of the capsule that it was elevated as opposed to the flat tops I had felt on the other bottles. Cause for concern?

35

Keep in mind that older wines were often hand bottled, which means there can easily be slight differences in how far the cork was pushed into the neck.

If it’s not deforming the capsule (as in the cork moved after the capsule was applied) and the fill is still good for it’s age, I wouldn’t worry about it.

Pushed corks from either heat or extreme cold are usually VERY noticeable - like a quarter inch or more past the glass.

36

I’ve heard that SOPS is ok with older vintage port. True?

37

I think it’s very unlikely an 83 Bordeaux was bottled by hand. The properties are mostly large and the cellars were pretty modern by then.

38

No, capsule issues can have a lot of reasons …

Signs of seepage is a reason to concern if it was a real seepage caused by high temperature (which should also affect the fill level - but if it was only due to too early shipping or high original fill, it´s no problem.

Good fill level is the most important idication for a sound bottle …
In Bordeaux the vintage was quite weak, so all but top fills (high shoulder or better) should be avoided.
Otherwise mid shoulder is usually acceptable at lower price, lower fill only if very rare or very cheap …

I would also examine the colour of the wine … it should be definitely red (bright or dark …), not be browning …

72 Burgundies can be excellent, but a fill of 5 cm (2 inch) is the border to be cautious. There can indeed be fine bottles with a lower fill, but the risk is much higher.
I´ve had several good 72s from the Rhone, although not a great vintage …