New Oak ... is it really necessary?

Cellar Rats (ITB)
1

As a winemaker/grower, do you feel the use of new oak is required for your wine to be as good as it can be?

I ask because I, like many others (on this Board, and others), am finding my palate preferences slowly gravitating away from the (heavy) use of new oak. I wonder if the same thing happens with you winemakers’/growers’ palates over time – and if such a change does likewise happen, how does that change affect/not affect your winemaking philosphy with respect to oak in your wines?

Why are so many wines put through new oak aging … and extended aging, at that? Why not use larger barrels (smaller oak:wine ration), older barrels (1, 2, 3+ years old, instead of new), cement, porcelain, or stainless steel? I imagine some wines need at least some oak to be at their best, but this is only an assumption. When oak is “required,” how do you decide how much oak to use?

2

Brian,
I am new to the winemaker business but I use no new oak, ever. It is one of the reasons I got into the biz. FWIW, I only produce wines that are below 14% ABV, as well.
So essentially, I am making wines for me; a demographic which may not appeal to a large portion of the market. That’s a fairly unusual combination for California but one that I think allows the intensity of the fruit and, to the extent that it can, the place, to show through.
I see new oak and high alcohol as ‘masks’ to both fruit intensity and terroir.
Best, Jim

3

Sometimes I’ve been shocked at wines that have a lot of new oak on them for NOT showing it. I think fruit source and farming can come into play here. There are a lot of famous wines from traditional regions that see lots of new oak but the fruit sucks it up. If anything it probably needs to be used more judiciously.

4

FWIW, I have never seen any scientific evidence to support such a correlation.
Anecdotally, I doubt it; longevity is more about balance IMO.
Best, Jim

5

Me, too.
Hard to figure . . .
Best, Jim

6

I stick to the good old American oak. And to my students, I let them use oak chips. Haven’t tried new oak. I’m not confident enough that it will get the job done. [stirthepothal.gif]

ITB too.
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7

No, it is not. We buy three and four year old Chardonnay barrels every year for our Syrahs and Zins. We do also use a small percentage of new Hungarian oak, but that’s just a stylistic choice.

8

Edmunds-St-John, Domaine Ponsot, Gentaz-Dervieux, Noël Verset, Clape, most Chablis, most Rieslings, Clos des Papes (red and white), etc., etc.

They’ve all got track records for aging, and guess what? . . . NO. NEW. OAK.

9

Grape variety might be part of it, but the oak itself makes a difference. I have had Pinot aged in 100% new oak and it was not oaky in the least bit. It was aged in very tight grained French oak, and the oak impact was minimal.

10

But, but, but… doesn’t the “Keeper of all Things Holy Regarding Terroir” (DRC) use 100% new oak on their wines? [stirthepothal.gif] [whistle.gif]

11

Not just the tightness of the grain, but the toastage and any washing treatment. 100% new oak doesn’t have to be intrusive, but it the way it is employed, it usually is.

12

Brian,
I have almost no experience with DRC wines (care to guess why?).
I assume that the folks at DRC have dealt with their respective terroirs for so long that they have a pretty good handle on what they want from each - or if you prefer, what each can give them - and what process best suits them.
I am dealing with young vineyards and have little experience to base any such decision on - so I choose to try it this way.
Maybe I’ll be proven wrong. With so little track record it would not surprise me. But, like you (and you are where I got the concept to begin with), I like what I make.
So much for shrines and such.
Best, Jim

13

Agreed! And I was just messing with you a bit neener

14

Linda brings up some good points … what’s more important with respect to how “oaky” a wine is? Toast level/type? Tightness of grain? Type of oak? Age of oak? or the Wash?

15

If a wine “sees lots of new oak but the fruit sucks it up” then what is the point in using the oak in the first place? I’m honestly curious.

16

Proponents of new oak who say that they are not seeking oaky flavors frequently say that they want the extra oxygenation that the new oak gives and/or that they want the assurance of cleanliness from new oak.

17

I think it’s a stylistic preference like pretty much everything else involved with wine making (and drinking).

For example, I paid a premium for my '08 syrah and masking that killer fruit with a heavy-handed use of new oak would have been a crime in my book. However, I also didn’t want to craft a singular, overt fruit bomb either.

The goal is to find balance with all of the parts coming together seamlessly as a whole.

There are other factors to consider too. At this point my production is very limited and spending $1K on a new French oak barrel would have been a waste of money since I only wanted to impart a tiny percentage of new oak to the syrah. Ultimately, I got around this issue by using staves which was a more economical solution and I had more precise control over the oak influence.

As for whites my '09 viognier was fermented in 100% stainless steel; the other option would have been neutral oak, but I prefer stainless with viognier.

This year’s pinot is fermenting in a 2-year old Seguin-Moreau barrel; I will most likely employ the same oak regimen I used with the syrah, but I’ll wait until ml is finished before making the final decision.

18

does this mean you merely put some oak barrel staves in the (SS?) fermenting tank?

19

Not exactly. After the first racking, I put the custom-made inserts (staves) into our neutral French oak barrel; the inserts stayed in contact with the wine for a month or so and then were taken out.

20

so you made your own “zebra barrel”?