Native/indigenous yeast ferments vs. cultured

Cellar Rats (ITB)
21

Sounds like wild yeasts are…wild.

link - http://web.auckland.ac.nz/uoa/science/about/departments/chemistry/about/subjects/winescience/research/sauvignonblanc/wineyeast.cfm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yeast strains present in New Zealand vineyards and wineries

A series of MSc students based in SBS have analysed the yeasts (both Saccharomyces cerevisiae and other yeast species) found in both vineyards and wineries across New Zealand. A fingerprinting kit has been established that can distinguish wild strains of S. cerevisiae from each other and from the commercial strains of wine yeast. Fingerprinting studies have shown that some NZ wineries have their own native strains of yeast and that the level of genetic diversity in these populations is high. DNA sequencing of the ITS region has been used to identify a wide range of other yeast species that are also present in New Zealand vineyards and wineries, some of which have not previously been characterized.

22

Here’s a bit more. Turns out yeast are wild and like to have sex.

Unique New Zealand Wine Yeasts Discovered | Voxy.co.nz" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yeast Sex: Surprisingly High Rates of Outcrossing between Asci" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

23

Kevin,

A quick glance between sorting fruit at the articles shows some real puzzlers. For instance, yeast was found in barrels in the winery and that humans distribute yeast inadvertantly, but they couldn’t find any S. Cerv. in the winery prior to harvest?

I think that you gotta go back to the real source reports for any of the things we are all linking to --rather than these summary articles — and that conclusions based on articles written for average folks are limited in their worth.

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

24

Adam,
do you guys pitch a cultured yeast or is it yeasts gone wild at siduri/novy?

25

No one has addressed the issue of resident yeast strains being that of one’s used in past vintages. How could/would these come in to play?

26

What Nate said. He’s my hero [dance-clap.gif]

I really don’t care what anyone else calls them. Call it wild, call it native, call it monkey butt, what every pleases you and you feel you can defend with a straight face to your customers. I’m gonna give ‘feral’ a try and see how that works.

John - back to the original question. I’ve been told that BDX is a colonizer and once you’ve used it, it’s everywhere in your facility. Nothing scientific about that just advice from an old local winemaker who tried to not pitch yeast and found that BDX was finishing everything. You can have your musts tested as you go along to see what’s going on but I would suspect that things you’ve pitched in the past will show up as active in your ferments at some point.

I’ll tell you something else I’ve noted (no science here either). The grapes I bring in off the estate vineyard, Chardonnay, Merlot and Cabernet all start really fast for me without pitching yeast. In 07 the Cab started hard in 8 hours and blew the top off the tank at 12 hours. I’ve not had an estate pick take longer than 24 hours to start fermenting. Everything else I make I bring in and I’ve never had one of those start before 24 hours and I’ve had Pinot take 5 1/2 days to get going. There seems so be some synergy between the yeasts coming in from the field and those on the crushpad that gets the estate working fast. Maybe because they’ve had 20+ years together.

If you are worried about BDX doing your Pinot and Syrah, I’d suggest letting the ferments start on their own then adding a finisher you think will take over at a higher brix, maybe 12-15. Honestly I think this is a baby step almost everyone takes at some point before going 100% non-pitch.

27

A couple of thoughts first –

  1. We bring in fruit from the Muirfield Vineyard, in Oregon, that, if left to ferment uninnoculated, produces an unacceptably high level of EA – and this continues throughout the fermentation process. Making you think that there is something unique to the yeasts on these grapes.

  2. We often see that cold soaks later in the season take off quicker and easier on their own – making you think that ferments are occuring (or at least finishing) with yeasts commonplace within the winery walls.

As far as what we do – we sometimes let fruit go thru on its own but other times add some yeast to certain lots (if the fruit has botrytis, for instance, we will. But we also like adding some yeast to one particular section of the Garys’ Vineyard). The goal, for us, is to take each lot and each vineyard and vintage seperately and decide what we think makes the most sense for them.

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines
__

28

If we are quibbling about semantics, I prefer the term “spontaneous”, as it covers all the bases, although I usually write “wild” on the work orders, because it is a shorter word. [basic-smile.gif]

29

I took a winemaking class taught by Dr. Rainer Eschenbruch, now living in New Zealand but originally from Germany. This was a few years ago, but he said he did research a while back on yeasts during fermentation and basically he said that it was about a 50%-50% shot that what you put in the tank would actually finish up the fermentation. It was pretty eye opening that innoculating can have such a low chance… Yeast like apiculata, that have low alcohol tolerance and get wiped out by SO2 easily can contribute to some very interesting aromas in wine if let them go…

I guess the big question is S02 or no S02 before fermentation…

30

Paul, before you have even given your monkey butt the first spin around the post, you have already created a stir.

So much so that there is already an “anti” group out there trying to counteract your crusade:

http://www.antimonkeybutt.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With calamine, even.

31

Ahh…but from Urban Dictionary:

Assmonkey
Close relative of an asshat, an assmonkey is best defined as ‘any disagreeable idiot who has successfully combined being an asshole with the brainpower of a monkey fed LSD’. Eytemology is unknown, but there are perhaps links to Wayne’s World, and the line “Pshyeah, and monkeys might fly out my butt.”

32

I suppose any thread that starts with Assman in it is destined to take a turn for the worse . . .

33

You’re nobody till someone is anti you. [welldone.gif]

The Anti Monkey Butt Elite.

34

What are the advantages of using wild vs inoculated? Are the aromas or flavors different?

35

Yes. [basic-smile.gif]

But likely not over the long term.

36

What are the differences? More complexity with wild?

37

I’ve had the same issue with wetter/colder area grapes, especially Pinot. Dryer clime grapes from organically farmed vineyards seem to do best with ‘feral’ ferments.

38

My take is this. If you have a fermentation that makes the best wine you have ever made, in terms of what you believe the yeast contributed, and if you could replicate the yeast contribution every single fermentation, why throw the dice and start from scratch?

I innoculate every ferment with a yeast strain, sometimes two, that I think will make the best wine from that specific fruit.

I don’t consider myself to be using “Industrial yeast”. I am using “yeast selections” that were identified in some of the best wineries across International growing regions, because they make great wine across the wine growing regions of the world.

I also consider many of the wild yeast to be spoilage organisms, which is why I pick the grapes cold, destem the grapes cold with dry ice, add a small amount of SO2 at the fermentor and sanitize the phuck out of everything.

Why would I roll the dice with a bunch of unknown, dirty, stinky little bugs, when yeast that make great wine and that are known factors in terms of low H2S, good flavors and aromatics, cool steady complete ferments, assure the wine quality contribution of the fermentation? Just so I can blow smoke up someone’s ass with a cool story? [stirthepothal.gif]

If you have the financial wherewithal to throw fermentors of wine away, like to see fermentations that stick and don’t go dry every time, or like to bulk it out, go for it. It makes no sense to me not to innoculate every single fermentor. And… I’ve seen and found out later about (too many) winemakers saying that they do things, (as part of their spin) when in fact it was all a b.s. story. I don’t actually believe everything I hear and read, because it includes alot of bullshit. [cry.gif]

39

I think the best reason to use native yeast is - You believe it makes a better wine. IMO, native yeasts ferments are more complex. Some argue that wines show more distinctive vineyard specific character as well. While I can’t verify that, it seems quite plausible given the diversity of genetics and differing selection pressure that each vineyard might offer.

IMO, distinctiveness is one of the core qualitative attributes of wine, so using the same yeast as the next guy is self defeating in that regard.

As far as safety and control, those arguments are on a slippery slope that can ultimately lead to homogenized and industrial wine. It is sort of like pasteurized versus unpasteurized cheese. Also once you become accustomed to them, native yeasts fermentations are not inherently more risky. That is a myth. We have done hundreds with only one or two problems which probably isn’t much different than the odds for inoculation.

All that said, I have tasted plenty of great wine made from inoculants so this mostly fun pre-harvest banter.

40

Where does brettanomyces fall in your pantheon of native yeast? Do you include it, exclude it or what?