Musigny prices

[Keith_Levenberg]

I have (usually in an inebriated state), repeatedly expressed this view with considerably more vehemence.

It makes me angry, too, but less about the wine than the fact that Ronald Coase has a Nobel Prize while I have managed to disprove his theorem while drinking, and don’t have a Nobel Prize.

I make no claims on anyone’s Nobel, but Chambolle is my favorite village and it’s endlessly frustrating that 75% of it top terroir is held by a producer who makes wine in a way that, even its fans tell me, “oh, you just need to try the wines from the 70s”. First, where am I going to get perfectly cellared 70s Musigny? Second, why make wines that way, when Mugnier’s wines are so delicious. There’s no prize for making wine that’s undrinkable for the first 40 years of its life.

Don’t think that’s the issue - what they’re doing now definitely ain’t the same thing they were doing in the '70s

[Greg_K]

It makes me angry, too, but less about the wine than the fact that Ronald Coase has a Nobel Prize while I have managed to disprove his theorem while drinking, and don’t have a Nobel Prize.

I make no claims on anyone’s Nobel, but Chambolle is my favorite village and it’s endlessly frustrating that 75% of it top terroir is held by a producer who makes wine in a way that, even its fans tell me, “oh, you just need to try the wines from the 70s”. First, where am I going to get perfectly cellared 70s Musigny? Second, why make wines that way, when Mugnier’s wines are so delicious. There’s no prize for making wine that’s undrinkable for the first 40 years of its life.

Don’t think that’s the issue - what they’re doing now definitely ain’t the same thing they were doing in the '70s

I don’t think anyone is, but they’re certainly making wines that are still monolithic and oaky. I also can’t comment as to what they were doing in the 70s
The knock on Eugenie used to be, for obvious reasons, that they were making Bordeaux in Burgundy. But I think it’s more true of de Vogue these days. (And for the record, I love Bordeaux, but when it’s made in Bordeaux with cab.)

Also, to be clear, to people who love de Vogue - god bless. I imagine it’s a relative steal, though I’ve yet to meet anyone who prefers it to Mugnier or Roumier.

[patrick_c_albright]

Prices only going up. Wholesale 2018 Drouhin at $850, Vogue $750. Nuts. The smart money is on Tawse regardless of where his plots reside.

A commonality, both are imported by Dreyfus Ashby, which is owned by the Drouhin family.
There is also tariff $$ in that figure.

Drouhin is substantially cheaper in France, Vogüé not so much.

[Marcu_Stanley]

If they sold all their holdings to Freddy Mugnier, the price would go up supply notwithstanding.

I have (usually in an inebriated state), repeatedly expressed this view with considerably more vehemence.

It makes me angry, too, but less about the wine than the fact that Ronald Coase has a Nobel Prize while I have managed to disprove his theorem while drinking, and don’t have a Nobel Prize.

LOL nice econ wonkery!

Coase-ian oversimplification also helped lead to the disastrous asset auctions in the 90s in Russia; turns out it does actually matter who owns what.

[Charlie_Carnes]

Faiveley is on account of scarcity. They have like a barrel and I think it’s a little barrel. Vogue production indeed prevents scarcity from driving the price, but I reckon the unfashionably extracted, oaky style depresses it further. If they sold all their holdings to Freddy Mugnier, the price would go up supply notwithstanding.

I don’t know if they are still as good as they were, but the 1964 Faiveley Musigney still stands out as one of the best wines I have ever drunk!

[Kelly_Walker]

Faiveley is on account of scarcity. They have like a barrel and I think it’s a little barrel. Vogue production indeed prevents scarcity from driving the price, but I reckon the unfashionably extracted, oaky style depresses it further. If they sold all their holdings to Freddy Mugnier, the price would go up supply notwithstanding.

I don’t know if they are still as good as they were, but the 1964 Faiveley Musigney still stands out as one of the best wines I have ever drunk!

Got to barrel taste the Faiveley Musigny some years ago. Half barrel with a locking bung. Not just scarce but great.

[Robert_Sand]

Faiveley is on account of scarcity. They have like a barrel and I think it’s a little barrel. Vogue production indeed prevents scarcity from driving the price, but I reckon the unfashionably extracted, oaky style depresses it further. If they sold all their holdings to Freddy Mugnier, the price would go up supply notwithstanding.

I don’t know if they are still as good as they were, but the 1964 Faiveley Musigney still stands out as one of the best wines I have ever drunk!

I´ve participated in a Musigny tasting some years ago, and the Faiveley came out at the top of the wines … and there were most producers included -
Also a 2002 was stunning when tasted in 2015.

[Jeremy_Holmes]

Faiveley Musigny is one of the great wines of the world. We have been fortunate to have had some pretty special themes at Monday Table over the years, including Romanee-Conti, La Tache and Rousseau Chambertin and Beze, but none were more consistently brilliant than the Faiveley Musigny line-up we had. When we have had the odd bottle thrown into a blind tasting, it is also usually the top wine of the flight.

Rare Moose In The Spotlight

[David_Kubiak]

Would there not be a seriously enormous amount of money to be made by Vogue if they sold half their holding? Or does the family still control the firm and refuse to give up more than a tiny piece here and there. (Is it known what Erwin Faiveley paid for the minuscule parcel he added relative recently?)

[alan_weinberg]

Faiveley Musigny is one of the great wines of the world. We have been fortunate to have had some pretty special themes at Monday Table over the years, including Romanee-Conti, La Tache and Rousseau Chambertin and Beze, but none were more consistently brilliant than the Faiveley Musigny line-up we had. When we have had the odd bottle thrown into a blind tasting, it is also usually the top wine of the flight.

Rare Moose In The Spotlight - WINE TALK - WineBerserkers

and we had a couple when Don, you, I, and our wives ate at Patina a few years ago, I think.

[Maxwell_A]

I’m so very curious to one day be able to taste some Vogue wines…such a controversial producer. Vogue seems to get trashed here a lot but gets excellent reviews from many prominent Burgundy critics (Meadows, Neal Martin, Tanzer, Gilman).
I could see some giving them good reviews and scores “for the style” even if they aren’t classic.
Gilman, however, seems to be one of the first to condemn a producer for making non-classic “monolithic, oaky,” underperforming wines and I see mostly very positive notes from him.
So far, I only see reviews for the 2017s from William Kelley on TWA. They seem to be positive but there are some mentions of new oak, especially dark color, and the wines not as typical for 2017 reds.

So what combination of these applies to Vogue that causes all this disagreement:

1. bigger, darker, oaky style? (unfashionable?)
2. wines are made in a style that is difficult to appreciate before decades of cellaring?
3. wines are underperformers for quality?
4. wines are excellent but Roumier, Mugnier, Faiveley etc. just outshine Vogue?

Unfortunately, the wines are a bit expensive for me to buy a few, pop them open, and see for myself. Especially with so much excellent wine for less $$$.

[Jeremy_Holmes]

Faiveley Musigny is one of the great wines of the world. We have been fortunate to have had some pretty special themes at Monday Table over the years, including Romanee-Conti, La Tache and Rousseau Chambertin and Beze, but none were more consistently brilliant than the Faiveley Musigny line-up we had. When we have had the odd bottle thrown into a blind tasting, it is also usually the top wine of the flight.

Rare Moose In The Spotlight - WINE TALK - WineBerserkers

and we had a couple when Don, you, I, and our wives ate at Patina a few years ago, I think.

Yep, the '95 and 2000. Both stunning.

[Glen_Gold]

I’d ordered from a very respected retailer a few bottles of Dujac that showed up cooked - they took them back immediately and I had a store credit just about large enough to take a flyer and buy a 2013 Drouhin Laroze Musigny - under $500. I know that house didn’t get much love until that vintage, but I figured this was the second time I was spending the same money, so why not take a chance? This is my one bottle of Musigny; we’ll see in another few years whether that panned out or not.

[Ian_S]

Faiveley Musigny is one of the great wines of the world.

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph!!! A quick dekko at wine searcher and I’m gobsmacked at the price of that! It’s Faiveley, for feck’s sake. My entire wine budget would go up the spout for a single bottle.

[Tomas_Costa]

Faiveley Musigny is one of the great wines of the world.

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph!!! A quick dekko at wine searcher and I’m gobsmacked at the price of that! It’s Faiveley, for feck’s sake. My entire wine budget would go up the spout for a single bottle.

As I like to say, if something costs that much then it better be one of the greatest wines in the world…

[Rauno_E_NZ]

If you take the view that ANY bottle can be worth ~US$6000 then an exceptional wine from an exceptional vineyard made in tiny quantities is probably a great candidate. Leroy, DRC, Liger Belair and Roumier shouldn’t have a monopoly on ridiculous red burgundy pricing when this Faiveley is of equal or better quality and smaller production. Of course, the listings on WineSearcher are for what the wine has NOT sold for.

And in defence of Vogue, I have found the Bonnes Mares drinks really well much earlier than the Musigny (though of course it can age and age) and earlier this year a Vogue '96 Les Amoreuses quite stole the show ahead of the Vogue Musigny and Mugnier Musigny from the same vintage. And the 1er Cru can be jolly good, almost a “value” wine.

Of course, I think it is interesting that Vogue could no doubt treble the wealth of the Domaine by selling off even just a third of its Musigny holdings. I’m not sure Roumier, Mugnier or Faiveley have the balance sheets to buy it up, nor the appetite to dramatically increase their production, but I’m sure there’s a trillionaire somewhere who would fund it even if just as a vanity / passion project ! It reminds me of Rippon here in New Zealand, which has fantastic land overlooking lake Wanaka. I suspect that (like most wineries) they eke out modest to decent returns - but if they sold the vineyards off to developers they would net some substantially greater return! Personally, I’m quite happy that not all producers are constantly seeking to maximise shareholder returns.

[Arvid_Rosengren]

I’ve been lucky to be part of a few comparative blind tastings of the top level holders of Musigny over multiple vintages. While there perhaps were some diverging preferences, the general outcome seems to be Leroy is worthy of the top attention. Faiveley not far behind. Drouhin is the “value” buy and while never the winner, it’s consistently in the top. Roumier can be stunning but, as Christophe is the first to admit - he feels he needs more than a barrel to work with to truly get it to fulfill its potential.

As for Vogüé and why some critics still hold them to such a high rating, I will add one anecdotal perspective that I cannot fully explain. Barrel tasting at Vogüé is, in my experience, fantastic. It’s one of my favorite visits. The wines shine and seem to be a great lens into the terroirs and a vintage. Then I’ve tasted the same wines after bottling and found myself wondering what’s happened? Is it just a showing of favorable barrels? Something in the bottling or blending that makes it shut down? Low expectations being exceeded in a charming tasting? But I’d be willing to wager that many of the critics (in Burgundy especially) base their notes on barrel samples and not the finished product. Also (and I hate to be that guy), old vintages of Vogüé are among the best and most reliable Burgundies I’ve had.

[Andrew_K]

Faiveley Musigny is one of the great wines of the world.

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph!!! A quick dekko at wine searcher and I’m gobsmacked at the price of that! It’s Faiveley, for feck’s sake. My entire wine budget would go up the spout for a single bottle.

It’s important to note that Faiveley Moose is on par with Screaming Eagle, DRC or Coche in terms of cult following that drives up the price. The price at the cellar door has always been a fraction of the market price.

[A_Songeur]

When one looks at the location of their initial minute plot (before they bought Dufouleur) very small at the limit of Musigny and 1er cru (les borniques I think)… they must do a brilliant job! A true micro climate

Had a very good Gevrey Cazetiers Faiveley 2011 tonight.

[Keith_Levenberg]

Les Borniques makes a mighty fine poor man’s Musigny, as it happens