I think a further point to bear in mind here is that not all sites actually have terroir in the sense (or at least one of the senses) that the term is used in France. There is a reason the flat lands with deep soils in Burgundy are largely classified as generic ‘Bourgogne’, which is that they very seldom evoke a sense of place in more than the most vague, regional sense. (Obviously there are some exceptions which have probably been wrongly classified).
I think this is nailing it right here. I imagine that if you separately vinified parcels of Bourgogne rouge across of range of plots on the flat lands east of the route nationale across the length of the cote d’or from Fixin down to Chassagne, you probably would not find much great difference or at least interesting, compelling differences between them. Of course, when you compare to the situation to GCs and PCs plots of land 20 metres apart show their own character and identity and for me this is the ‘sense of place’ that the word terroir is meant to evoke: conditions that result in a certain quality level that in turn enables the expression of a unique character and emotion in the wine.
So I don’t disagree with what you or Gerhard are saying.
Obviously Twenty Rows is not from
But what I was trying to point out that although we like terroir to be so precise - Vosne is more silky, with a beguiling kind of power as compared to Nuits-St-George - it’s not the grapes fault if they are planted in a less than ideal site.
So a grapevine in the rich loamy flat lands at the bottom of a hillside may not produce a wine which is as precisely delineated as a wine from very clear terroir, but it is still saying something - it is saying, unlike my cousins, in a more ideal site, I am here, and this is what I taste like here. But that message is worth acknowledging, too.
The may not be a clear expression of what their home terroir is like - beyond saying I am from a place that does not have a strong sense of place.
That too is an expression, the absence of the sense of terroir we love. But by standing ready to acknowledge it, we sharpen our ability to understand precise terroir. By understanding the rest, we gain a better ability to appreciate the best.
I am sure that this will prove interesting for producers in Bordeaux and in Napa around Oakville and Rutherford. I guess Latour, Lafite, Mouton, Margaux and Haut Brion do not have high quality.
Are you talking exclusively about Styria or other specific places? As a generalization about all vineyards, as others have pointed out, it seems just wrong. There are too many other variables.
First, in cooler, more northerly climates like Germany and Austria, the slopes do have a better angle to the sun, which aids ripening. And where the slopes are really steep, as in the Mosel, yes, the looser, richer soil does tend to wash down.
By contrast, in places like Bordeaux and Chateauneuf the vines don’t need to be angled to the sun, the best spots are well drained and gravelly and there are no steep slopes whose rich soils have deposited on the flatter areas. Similarly, much of Ribera del Duero is relatively flat – no need for extra sun exposure there.
And, as Doug points, in arid places like Napa or Spain, drainage isn’t an issue, at least on the gentle slopes.
The only time I had a Coulee de Serrant (in a restaurant) I was surprised to read on the label a sentence like: “the grapes are picked overripe to allow the wine to fully express the terroir of the Coulee de Serrant vineyard”.
Which still sounds strange to me.
Was that “surmaturité” in French or was it “overripe” in English? Savennières is generally picked very late, and I believe that “surmaturité” in French does not always have a negative connotation, though (for me anyway) “overripe” is always a negative.
Probably “surmaturité” as you say. I am sure it didn’t have a negative connotation, but still, the grapes had certainly been picked overripe. In any case the concept that surmaturite’ is necessary to let the terroir express itself I found weird.
That’s the traditional style for Savennieres.
Keep in mind that Latour makes a second and a third wine so it must have lesser terroir - lesser wines mean lesser grapes which by Gerhard’s formulation means lesser terroir.
I am kind of joking here b/c I do in a sense believe in what Gerhard said, in some circumstances.
I was mainly talking about Styria (and other more Northern vineyards - as was the 1st posting by Tom …)
Nevertheless the best Bordeaux vineyards usually lie on gravel hills … not steep but higher than the surroundings - and think of St.Emilions Côte vineyards … and Petrus is situated on a (soft) clay hill …
In Chateauneuf-du-Pape almost the whole Appellation lies on a gravel terrace which more or less gently falls off into the Rhone valley - or in the direction of Orange/Courthezon etc.
(not to speak of Cote-Rotie and Hermitage)
Sure - more Southern vineyards are less in need of a perfect angle of sunlight … but the questions of drainage and of too deep soil in the flats remain …