Monfortino

[Claus_Jeppesen]

@Rob_M1

My wife significantly prefers Giuseppe Rinaldi, Burlotto, and Roagna over Conterno and I can totally understand why. In the same vintage, at least per the labels, Rinaldi is getting to an alcohol level typically 1% below Conterno and the Rinaldi wines are shockingly light and ethereal, but at the same time very complex, and the fruit on the Rinaldi seems far more subdued to me than on the modern Conternos, but there’s still a beautiful sense of sweetness to the wine. I find the recent Rinaldi wines mesmerizing on release, but question their age worthiness.

Ive had bad experiences with Giuseppe Rinaldi from the 80’s and also 90’s. Giacomo Conterno Cascina Francia has been great with 30-40 years of age

[William_Kelley]

One of the big, lifetime projects in wine is the attempt to be able to see the wood from the trees… and it is certainly not easy!

[Rob_M1]

@Claus_Jeppesen

@Rob_M1

My wife significantly prefers Giuseppe Rinaldi, Burlotto, and Roagna over Conterno and I can totally understand why. In the same vintage, at least per the labels, Rinaldi is getting to an alcohol level typically 1% below Conterno and the Rinaldi wines are shockingly light and ethereal, but at the same time very complex, and the fruit on the Rinaldi seems far more subdued to me than on the modern Conternos, but there’s still a beautiful sense of sweetness to the wine. I find the recent Rinaldi wines mesmerizing on release, but question their age worthiness.

Ive had bad experiences with Giuseppe Rinaldi from the 80’s and also 90’s. Giacomo Conterno Cascina Francia has been great with 30-40 years of age

Probably storage related or even importer related depending on the source of the bottles (my understanding is Vinifera sucks, both pricing wise and temp control wise historically), but I do think even controlling for that there is a greater amount of bottle variation in the Rinaldi wines. Maybe the tiny corks are part of the explanation.

I’ve had very good experiences with Rinaldi '67 Brunate Riserva, the '71 blended Barolo, and the '78 Brunate Riserva, along with the '96 and '99 Brunate. But for the '78, I’ve opened two bottles from the same source and one was incredible, one was good. The '99 has been variable for me as well, although all bottles pretty good.

But while I wasn’t around to taste Rinaldi on release from this period, I suspect the changes in Rinaldi winemaking from the 90s to today are even greater than the changes made at Conterno. The purity of fruit in the 2019 or 2020 Rinaldi wines compared to the apparently purposeful lack of fruit in Beppe’s wines is quite a contrast.

[William_Kelley]

I think one of the big fallacies in wine is deriving/assuming contemporary performance from past performance, when there have been big changes in climate, viticulture, personnel, and winemaking practices in the interim. On the one hand, Rinaldi was certainly not the most consistent producer back then; but Conterno 30-40 years ago also worked very differently, in very different facilities, in very different circumstances; and this would be true of any number of other comparisons between producers, in any number of regions.

[Rob_M1]

@William_Kelley

I think it’s probably a mistake to correlate age worthiness with perception of tannin, since the latter often has more to do with tannin quality than tannin quantity. Analytically, for example, contemporary Burgundy and Bordeaux generally has much more tannin in quantity than the wines of the 1980s and 1990s… yet those wines tasted more tannic young, because the tannins were coarser and extraction less selective (if you e.g. ferment hot, break the cap a lot, add extraction enzymes, do a heated post fermentation maceration, and then take lots of press wine, you will extract plenty of unripe tannins in addition to the ripe tannins that extract naturally without much in the way of intervention beyond a long maceration). And in any case, most wines will age well if bottled without appreciable dissolved oxygen under a high quality closure (admittedly, criteria that are not always met). Indeed, Conterno’s fastidiousness about corks is surely one reason why his wines generally age well.

Thanks a lot for the explanations here. Perhaps instead of describing it in terms of tannins, I should say that my personal perception of some of the recent Rinaldi wines is that they feel very delicate to me. I think Galloni used that word to describe Rinaldi for the first time in his report last week as well, which funny enough to me is the first time I believe he’s called out the massive (in my view) style shift at this winery over the past decade. Still a lot of intensity but somehow packed into a frame that feels like a feather that could blow off in a slight breeze. The color of the wines also stands out for being much lighter than the older wines & most peers, I think.

On one hand, I’m blown away by what they have achieved. On the other hand, is there upside to cellar these wines for 20-30 years like the old school Barolos required? On top of the style, there’s the cork concerns you’ve touched on.

[William_Kelley]

The answer is one that only time can give definitively.

But there are two reasons to age wine: on the one hand, so it becomes more profound; on the other, so that it becomes less nasty.

I once discussed 19th-century wines with Jean-Claude Berrouet. He recounted how, on tasting all the ancient wines at Bel Air, it was the vintages that the old literature described as light, and for near-term consumption, that had in fact aged the best; whereas the “great” vintages were often out-of-balance after 100+ years.

[Vince_T]

Well, I for one will be looking forward the 2125 side-by-side tasting of 2018 vs 2021 Petrus to see if M. Berrouet is on to something.

[OwenJ]

Time to start writing a crash course for any grandchildren/great-grandchildren!

[Shan_A]

@William_Kelley

I once discussed 19th-century wines with Jean-Claude Berrouet. He recounted how, on tasting all the ancient wines at Bel Air, it was the vintages that the old literature described as light, and for near-term consumption, that had in fact aged the best; whereas the “great” vintages were often out-of-balance after 100+ years.

If you write a book, I will buy it. I am adding this request onto winemaking, aligote experimentation, burgundy reviews, champagne reviews, or bordeaux reviews (horizontals and verticals please!). And running the Wine Advocate. And raising a family

[erikportanger]

I had the 2013 recently and was expecting it to be a powerful, unyielding monster. Imagine my surprise then to find a dazzlingly crystalline and pure expression of Nebbiolo that immediately jumped into my top 5 barolos of all time. It was truly spectacular and while the tannins were clearly there, I was so awestruck by everything else going on that I really didn’t mind too much, especially with food.
I’m not sure what people mean when they say that Monfortino is becoming more modern. It remains as traditional as they come. But if it means that they are becoming accessible earlier, and are as spectacular as this, then I’m all for it…!

[Marshall_Manning]

@erikportanger

I’m not sure what people mean when they say that Monfortino is becoming more modern. It remains as traditional as they come. But if it means that they are becoming accessible earlier, and are as spectacular as this, then I’m all for it…!

Go try an '89 or '90 and I think you will see there’s been a change in style.

[Keith_A_k_e_r_s]

I don’t think he’s arguing that. Just that the newer wines are still firmly traditional while giving more pleasure now. Basically the style change is a good one for a fair amount of people.

That has been a consistent thing I’ve noticed overall for about a decade and I’m not complaining.

[Martin_Petersen]

No Monfortino was made in 1989

[Claus_Jeppesen]

I realise this (the fallacies)
But for an amateur wine geek it is difficult to scientifically filter the info on a media like this
I have bad experiences with Giuseppe Rinaldi from last millennium
Others with Bartolo from this, Aldo Conterno…
And then others again have had great experiences with them

[Claus_Jeppesen]

Another theme for a long thread🧐

[Claus_Jeppesen]

We had the 2001 for my b-day dinner
It was in same set as the 1989 Accomasso. Fantastic wines both
Enjoyed with homemade porchetta

CJ on Instagram

[Mikael_OB]

Fitting wines and the food looks great - congratulations Claus!

[Claus_Jeppesen]

Thanks Michael
It was a blast. Many uber great wines