Minerality in CA Pinot: Yes or No?

WINE TALK
21

He probably has secret admirers, and those who help him out behind the scenes without any glory or acknowledgement for themselves.

The legend lives on…

22

Ok, since it’s not a joke after all I might as well play :wink:

When I try to analyze a wine I look at aromas and structure. Aromas I usually consider only in passing, since most of the time there’s no one aroma that I value more than another (unless it’s the clear sign of a defect). Structure is more important to me.

From my point of view aromas are analyzed via the nose, and structure via the mouth/palate. So the funny thing is that in “analysis mode” I care more for structure, but in “drinking mode” I probably care more for aromas, or at least the relationship between the 2.

Anyway when it comes to minerality, here are my associations:

  • aromas: rain on pavement/rocks, sun on rocks, stonecutter at work, fresh cement, strip mines, pencil/ink, …
  • structure: I don’t associate minerality with acidity at all. Actually I’d have a hard time associating minerality and structure at all. At best I would say that “straightness” or “verticality” in a wine, which are in themselves hard to describe, would lead me to minerality.

I have had wines that were mineral and austere, mineral and plush… I’ve found it in whites and reds, in chardonnay, sauv blanc, pinot noir, merlot, cab franc, syrah…

23

I just stumbled on to this thread late, but I agree with this as well. I appreciate a mineral component in wine, and producers like Donnhoff demonstrate that vibrant fruit and minerals are not mutually exclusive.

24

This is a good point. I don’t associate minerality with steel or copper pennies-- it’s more of a chalky, calcium sort of taste to me. The best non-wine example is the flavor of Evian still water, which is intensely minerally. I pick this up in whites and rosés, but off the top of my head, I can’t recall noticing that in any reds. Regarding Pinot, I’ve only noticed minerality in Pinot rosés, where it’s pretty common.

So Nate makes a good point. Tasting is a subjective experience to begin with, but that’s compounded by the lack of a consistent vocabulary among wine enthusiasts.

25

+1

i am sensitive to, and usually dislike, any metallic aspect to red wines; especially in a finesse varietal like PN. i usually think of minerality as first salinity (relatively easily appreciated) and then perhaps step back to chemistry class and try to identify something from the Halogen column.

for me tartness is tartness and doesn’t get mixed up with minerality.

26

Oh it’s not minerality. It IS metallic. I just threw it out there as an example of how descriptors can be used to define one’s mineral/metallic experience. If I were to review that wine and just say the finish was unpleasantly metallic, sure as bug splat someone(s) would say that perhaps I just “don’t recognize/appreciate/have a clue about” minerality. But if I call it “tin foil” then I think it’s pretty clear that it’s a flaw.

27

If you said a red wine had a metallic finish, and not knowing anything else about the situation, I wouldn’t think you had an overtly mineral wine, I’d think you had an overtly bretty wine.

I would say that minerality is a function of terroir and some sites will express it differently and to differing degrees than others. It can be lost in winemaking through overripeness, overoaking, oxidative winemaking and I’m sure a million other ways. But when present it is not a function of acidity or any other structural element. For instance, a 2004 Clos du Caillou Chateauneuf du Pape Les Quartz I had recently was one of the most intensely mineral wines I’ve had in a while, and it is not a wine that shows a ton of acidity, it’s a rather big and plush wine. My $.02

28

This discussion reminded me of a couple of my all time favorite Cellartracker notes, all from the same user, on wines that I have. This person clearly has their preferences and I’m not knocking that at all, but these notes just make me chuckle. This is just a sampling. Perhaps this is a link in the chain of why so many new world wines emphasize forward fruit and not terroir.

1997 Chateau Montelena Cabernet Sauvignon The Montelena Estate (USA, California, Napa Valley) [Click to view 31 label images] [Add to my wishlist] 2/28/2009

Craft NYC/LA Live (New York, NY): Flawed. Really green. (623 views) Report issue, Add favorite



2001 Bodegas Muga Rioja Reserva Selección Especial (Spain, La Rioja, La Rioja Alta, Rioja) [Click to view 5 label images] [Add to my wishlist] 3/18/2009

NYC Third Wed - 2001 Rioja Dinner (Il Corso, NYC): Loads of earth on the nose that eventually blew off and becomes green in the mouth. No. (110 views) Report issue, Add favorite



2002 Arcadian Pinot Noir Francesca’s Cuvée (USA, California, Central Coast, Santa Lucia Highlands) [Click to view 1 label image] [Add to my wishlist] 2/26/2009

EMP - Foods Inspired by Burgundy (EMP New York, NY): This is the second time I had this and I liked it less this time. Dirt, funk and yuck. “This is burgundian” everyone said, and I agreed. :wink: (145 views) Report issue, Add favorite



2001 Domaine Marquis d’Angerville Volnay 1er Cru Champans (France, Burgundy, Côte de Beaune, Volnay 1er Cru) [Click to view 1 label image] [Add to my wishlist] 2/26/2009

EMP - Foods Inspired by Burgundy (EMP New York, NY): This was okay. Fruit, not sweet, but present. The earthiness wasn’t overpowering. (105 views) Report issue, Add favorite

29

On a mildly tangential note, commenting on obfuscation of character via ripeness, I also chuckle (shudder?) at the vast number of CT notes that call really excellent Cabs green. I think CA has educated people to think that Cabernet’s varietal character is chocolate milkshake as opposed to herbs / tobacco.

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This is why I associate it, personally, with a level of pleasantly lifted acidity. I never meant to imply that acidity in any way causes or contributes minerality, so I apologize to everyone if that was unclear. I just seem to find it more frequently in wines that have a good acid backbone and a conservative pH. On pH and “pHat” wines: when tasting wines made from the same vineyard but at different wineries, the wines with a plusher pH don’t offer quite the complexity, to me, that wines with a slightly lower pH will, although the higher pH wines are generally the crowd pleasers. And this is just a matter of degree … I will probably like the same vineyard better at 3.8 (still in the big and plush range) than 4.1 (blowsy to my taste). I think I can taste subtle elements better if the pH isn’t battering the wine into submission. Am I alone in this? [dontknow.gif] I also have this zany theory that a little zip from acidity awakens my palate to subtler flavors, or maybe just helps them hit the right tastebuds–like adding a splash of balsamic vinegar or wine to a meaty sauce or braising liquid.

And I agree on the heavy-handed oak, it covers up sin and beauty alike. And that could be a whole 'nother thread.

31

For my tastes, I definitely agree that wines that don’t push ripeness too far have more to offer. But to be fair there are any number of boring nondescript wines out there with ample acidity. Go buy a $9 bottle of Chablis :slight_smile: I think that overripeness is just one way to lose complexity.

One small thing, and others can surely offer a better expression of this but my understanding is that though pH and TA do co-vary they are not absolutely in lock step and TA is what you taste whereas pH is the indicator of biological stability. While you’re not likely to see a pH 4.2 wine with a TA of 6.5, or a pH 3.0 wine with a TA of 4 you can see a wine up around 3.6-3.8 with decent acidity for sure, just as you can see one in the same range that is 1-2 g lower in TA and will appear flabbier.

32

Well sure, but by pointing out that in cases where I am tasting from the same vineyard, I think the point is clearly implied that the potential for minerality and other subtle, layered flavors already exists in the wines.

It’s my rudimentary understanding that pH does measure the active acidity in the wine–it’s a different measurement than TA, and yes it may indicate the potential for stability (or otherwise), although a lot of winemakers these days are pushing the 4.0 envelope … Also, I am better at guesstimating a finished wine’s pH than TA, but I don’t know why. I am also not the chem head in the family, so if anyone can explain it a little better, please do.

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Oh dude…don’t get me started. I’m not sure I’ve worn out my welcome locally yet due to this but my preaching and proselytizing on the subject are a broken record to some I am sure.
[cheers.gif]

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Or fantastic CA cabs that are said to be ‘corked’

35

Well, as evinced above, 97 Montelena is green to the point of being flawed?

36

I have yet to try that vintage but I would put the odds heavily on ‘no’.

37

I’ve had it a couple of times. Definitely “no”.

38

You really nailed it for me Josh, when i think of minerality in reds i always think of CDP or some CDR wines that i’ve had that were not acidic at all but had a really nice crushed or wet rock finish.

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For examples of ripe, oaky wines that do display a lot of minerality, the better Priorat wines come to mind… Clos Mogador, Mas Doix, Clos Martinet and Rotllan Torra. Even though Mogador is probably my favorite of the group, I think Doix can be perhaps the most mineral wine in Priorat…

40

How many people find that they are able to determine a specific soil-type flavor in wine? For example, do you feel you can pinpoint volcanic soil vs. limestone vs. shale etc.? I’ve had wines grown in clay that seem to have a loamy, clay-like element, though I don’t necessarily attribute this to minerality. I’ve always thought the ultimate appeal with the idea of minerality is not just that a wine has a mineral flavor component and/or a mineral texture, but that a particular soil flavor unique to that vineyard would be discernable, so I’m curious to see if there are those who have found that they can actually pick out the soil type.