Let's Talk Sex..(long/boring/XXX/no pics)

[TomHill]

Specifically…let’s talk about grape sex. Man…I can hear all those back buttons being clicked already.
As I was reading in d’Agato’s book on Dindarella, he describes:

@d'Agata

Pelara is a biotype of Dindarella that has been hit with floral abortion and so its grape cluster looks very sparse & scrawny.

In the section on Timorasso, he discusses:

@d'Agata

It also suffers from floral abortion, with many flowers never bearing fruit.

1. So it almost sounds that “floral abortion” is a disease or malady that can strike a grapevine, not that it’s just merely that the grapevine is sterile. Is that so??

2. I find no other reference to floral abortion being a problem w/ Timorasso. It almost sounds like it is something that comes & goes w/ that variety. Anybody have any direct information on Timorasso??

Man…grape sex is so complicated. Makes people sex seem so…simple.

Tom

There’s not a whole lot of information out on the net on floral abortion in grapes.

@TomHill

From 6/24/08 on WLDG:

Not much on biology…so way out of my area of expertise here, only know neutrons.
Supposedly, grapes are hermaphroditic…stamens and pistels and all that stuff I don’t understand. But they are self-polinating and I gather this pollen falls off the stamen onto the pistel, the earth moves, and…voila…a grape is born. Pretty exciting…so they say.
The variety Picolit was nearly driven extinct be a so-called malady known as “floral abortion”, where the flower would form, and then drop off and never produce a berry, resulting in absymally low yields. My understanding is that “floral abortion” is not a disease, but simply the fact that Picolit is sterile and will not self-polinate. So, it is necessary to interplant Verduzzo or something amongst the Picolit to provide the pollen for Pilicit to germinate into a berry. I gather this pollen is spread by the wind or on the feetsies of the bees out there in the vnyd.
I was reading about Timorasso (a very interesting wine from the Piedmonte, somelike a fruity
Arneis is how I would describe it) and that it also suffers from “floral abortion”, which I presume implies that Timorasso is also sterile.
So a few questions here:

1. Are there other varieties in the wine world that are sterile?? And they would be??

2. Does the PiculitNeri that is grown in Friuli also suffer from being sterile? What varieties
   are interplanted, if it does??

3. If the pistel of a flower is pollinated by the pollen from another variety, rather than it’s own
   stamen; is the resulting berry the same as if it were pollinated by its oown stamen?? If it is different, that implies that Picolit interplanted w/ Verduzzo would differ from Picolit interplanted with PinotGrigio. Or is there much more incestuous fornication going on out there in the vnyd than I realize?? How close must the interplantings of Verduzzo with the Picolit be to get a good set?? What kind of yield can you get off Picolit by this interplanting?
   I suspect the cross pollinated grapes must be different then self-polinated. As I recall, when HaroldOlmo was developing his crosses, he would put a big baggie over the flowers of one variety and then spread the pollen from the other variety inside the baggie (wonder if the earth moved for Olmo when he was doing this?) and then propagated the crossed variety from the seeds of the resulting grapes. Sound pretty tedious to me.

4. As I understand it, if you have high winds and rains during the flowering, you get a poor set and a resulting low yield. Is this because the the pollen gets scattered hither & yon and doesn’t hook up with the pistel like it’s supposed to?

Sorry…probably one of today’s more esoteric posts…but sorta curious.
Tom

and a followup post in that thread:

@TomHill

My response to a post on another board:

John,
I think Robin is just repeating the story of “floral abortion” that is prevalent in nearly all the literature that you read about Picolit. I believe Robin is incorrect.
When I was doing the original article in 1981 in Vintage magazine, I talked at some length w/ HaroldOlmo. He cites research of DrGiovanni Cargnello at the Conegliano Institute. That research indicates that Picolit is a variety that is purely female flowers and, thus, is not hermaphroditic or self-polinating. Thus Picolit is not suffering from this mysterious malady of “floral abortion” that it somehow developed, but is merely a sterile variety.
Olmo suggested to me how this “floral abortion” malady evolved. Most of the early Italian plantings were field blends w/ much interplanting of of varieties who could provide the pollen to the Picolit. Thus the sterility of Picolit was not apparent. As the Italian vnyds moved to the more modern practice of planting varieties in blocks, the sterility of Picolit became obvious and they thought it was some disease, which they labeled “floral abortion”.
At Conegliano, they developed a Verduzzo/Picolit cross that was self-polinating. DarrellCorti is of the opinion (gasp…Darrel Corti…an opinion!!) that most of the Picolit from Friuli is not true Picolit, but the Verduzzo/Picolit cross.
Hopefully, CaroleMeredith will be chiming in her to answer all my sex questions (well…maybe not all of them!!)
If you want a copy of my Vintage magazine Picolit article, I can send you one. Or anybody else, for that matter.
Tom

In that same thread,

1. Brain Gilp pointed that the berry would be the same if it was cross-pollinated by another variety, but the seed in that berry would not. OK…that makes sense.

2. MarkLipton stated that Fiano was another was another example of a sterile variety that requires bees to pollinate the female. I can find no other reference to that being the case w/ Fiano and d’Agata doesn’t mention there being a problem w/ Fiano.

Tom

[Wes_Barton]

@TomHill

1. Brain Gilp pointed that the berry would be the same if it was cross-pollinated by another variety, but the seed in that berry would not. OK…that makes sense.

2. MarkLipton stated that Fiano was another was another example of a sterile variety that requires bees to pollinate the female. I can find no other reference to that being the case w/ Fiano and d’Agata doesn’t mention there being a problem w/ Fiano.

Tom

1. Correct across the plant world. This is also why with a crop such as corn, where it’s the actual seed you eat, you do need to protect against cross pollination. I get this with fava, since I’ve planted a few varieties. Some beans look true while others are obviously crossed.

2. Haven’t heard that about Fiano. I guess you could ask the Vannis and the Luna Mata folks if they have any issues. Of course these were/are both multi-variety vineyards, so sufficient proximity would likely lessen or eliminate the issue, though dependent on wind and/or insects.

3. As a potentially interesting aside, tomatoes are self-pollinating. A general rule for seed saving relates to some types being innies and others being outties. Regular leaf types are (supposedly all) innies - the pistil is within the bud at time of pollination and not likely to be crossed. With potato leaf varieties the pistil is sticking out for any tom with a load of pollen to access. So, it’s the PL varieties that need extra care if seed saving. (Also, fused flowers, which yield fused fruit, are more open to crossing, so you never save seed from them.) Don’t know where grapes lie regarding likeliness (openness/resistance) to crossing, or if there’s consistency in this between varieties and clones. Of course, who other than Randall Grahm is playing with growing from seed anyway?

[Mark_Y]

This thread is… .just… I don’t know…

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

and to think I didn’t click on this thread for a good five minutes just out of principle …

[Brian_Gilp]

On page 408 of D’Agata he states that Primitivo is susceptible to floral abortions in rainy or humid years so it sounds like its something that happens given the right conditions. There are a few growers on the east coast giving Zin a try and I have talked to a few, yet no one has mentioned a problem with fruit set. Quite the opposite in that they claim things go great up until a few weeks prior to harvest when the tight bunches rot from the inside out. Primitivo clones are supposed to have bunches that are not as tight as the zin clones and have been recommended as potentially better grapes for the humid conditions we face on the east coast.

[TomHill]

@Brian Gilp

On page 408 of D’Agata he states that Primitivo is susceptible to floral abortions in rainy or humid years so it sounds like its something that happens given the right conditions. There are a few growers on the east coast giving Zin a try and I have talked to a few, yet no one has mentioned a problem with fruit set. Quite the opposite in that they claim things go great up until a few weeks prior to harvest when the tight bunches rot from the inside out. Primitivo clones are supposed to have bunches that are not as tight as the zin clones and have been recommended as potentially better grapes for the humid conditions we face on the east coast.

Brian,
As I understand it, Picolit is subject to millerandage simply because the variety is sterile. It relies on active bees and wind-blown pollen
from nearby fertile varieties.
And then there are other varieties that are hermaphroditic (self-pollinating) but are prone to millerandage. And then
you can have bad weather conditions (high winds, heavy rains, lazy bees) that will produce millerandage on perfectly fertile
hermaphroditic varieties.
I’ve not heard of any particular problems w/ millerandage in Primitivo in Calif. I think growers of Primitivo
prefer it to Zin because of the looser bunches and less of a problem w/ uneven set (2’nd crop berries).

Man…this is a much more interesting/engaging discussion than I have over on http://www.HotChicksInNighties.com. where,
when I bring up a discussion of the Higg’sBosun, all of a sudden I’m alone in CyberSpace.
Tom

[TomHill]

What’s interesting is that when I put up a post on: “TN: Domenici Verdeca '09…(short/boring)”,
I’ll get maybe 7-8 views on a good day. But I put up a post w/ “Sex” in the title, and I get 584 views…and climbing.
Says a lot about the WineBerserker’s mentality!!
Tom

[Brian_Gilp]

@TomHill

Brian,
As I understand it, Picolit is subject to millerandage simply because the variety is sterile. It relies on active bees and wind-blown pollen
from nearby fertile varieties.
And then there are other varieties that are hermaphroditic (self-pollinating) but are prone to millerandage. And then
you can have bad weather conditions (high winds, heavy rains, lazy bees) that will produce millerandage on perfectly fertile
hermaphroditic varieties.

Tom

I am with you now. I was not following earlier this morning. But that also results in me having nothing of value to contribute as I know nothing about what you are asking.