I am going to guess that global warming has changed how vineyards are farmed and smaller conscientious growers can adapt easier to those changes. In the Mosel for example a producer like Will Schaefer is tiny compared to many Rheingau estates. For example, Robert Weil has 85 hectares, Leitz 40+ and Schaefer 4.2.
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Perhaps now, but that doesn’t explain how terribly the “great estates of the Rheingau” performed in the 1980s and most of the 1990s.
Why do people think the region underperforms? It is a matter of resting on one’s laurels? If so, why doesn’t MSR do that, since it is just as established historically as Rheingau. Is it simply that many of the estates, as far as I can tell, are larger in the Rheingau. I’m thankful for all the insight on this thread.
Historically, the Rheingau was considered the most prestigious region in German speaking regions. Riesling and botrytis wines where thought to have gotten their start there. It was the one white wine as expensive as first growth Burgundy and Bordeaux.
[quote=“Robert Dentice” post_id=3200792
It is not just me who fawns over them. When Stephen started importing them to the U.S. almost every major sommelier in NYC flipped over them and immediately added them to their lists. The majority of the people I have poured them for fall in love with them. Not to mention he is a winemaker’s winemaker and revered in Germany by his peers.
As for wines you don’t like that is cool but I don’t think it is fair to keep giving opinions on wines you have not tried recently. The Keller wines have changed a lot since you stopped buying them. As have the recent vintages of JB Becker. I would be absolutely shocked if you tried the 2015 JB Becker Jean Baptiste and did not like it.
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I don’t doubt what you are saying about nyc somms because Becker is a pretty constant presence on NYC “by the glass” lists, and all of those I’ve tried have been pretty well-suited to that purpose: unoffensive, inexpensive, and not particularly memorable. After a bunch of glasses tried that way, I’ve never felt the need to buy a bottle. I’ve got an open mind so I just grabbed a few bottles of the 2015 Jean Baptiste that you recommend. My hopes are high.
I haven’t found much in the Rheingau that seems worth buying every year. The one exception, based on relatively limited experience, is the Breuer wines - which so far seem worth chasing.
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I like Leitz quite a bit, but they’re hard to find in the US due to importer issues (tried to buy the directly from the estate, but that fell through). I also think Weil’s wines with a bit of age are lovely, and I think people sometimes, undervalue them because of the corporate (Suntory) ownership. But I find them quite good and they’re also a nice and easy visit that’s very close to Frankfurt (the Rheingau is extremely pretty). I’ve also had a few very good Kesseler wines as well, though to be honest I don’t seek them out.
I’m not a huge fan of Becker, from what I’ve tasted, but I do know some people really like the wines.
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The Rheingau is second only to Burgundy in guaranteeing that one pays too much and receives too little
I don’t doubt what you are saying about nyc somms because Becker is a pretty constant presence on NYC “by the glass” lists, and all of those I’ve tried have been pretty well-suited to that purpose: unoffensive, inexpensive, and not particularly memorable. After a bunch of glasses tried that way, I’ve never felt the need to buy a bottle. I’ve got an open mind so I just grabbed a few bottles of the 2015 Jean Baptiste that you recommend. My hopes are high.
I haven’t found much in the Rheingau that seems worth buying every year. The one exception, based on relatively limited experience, is the Breuer wines - which so far seem worth chasing.
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Cool! Give that wine some air it is a long ager. And I will backstop your purchase if you don’t like it I will give you a bottle of Breuer and buy the others : ) Hope we can drink soon!
Some of the most famous vineyards in Germany are Schloss Johannisberg, Schloss Vollrads, Erbacher Marcobrunn, Steinberger and Rauenthaler Baiken. I have had a few really good Marcobrunns and Baikens from the 1970s and 1980s. I had a taste of a wonderful Steinberger from the 1940s at a Rieslingfeier dinner. But, for the most part, the wines I have had from these jewels and other top vineyard sites have vastly underperformed. Could be some of these have gotten somewhat better, I don’t know because I stopped drinking them long ago.
Are there producers making excellent wine in the Rheingau, yes. But, does it mean the Rheingau has not slipped off its one exalted perch, no. Imagine if we were discussing the Medoc at a time when Lafite, Latour, Margaux and Mouton were all making mediocre wines and people made the argument that the region had not slipped because Sociando Mallet, La Lagune and Lynch Bages were making wonderful wines. And, before you think this is a weird analogy, go back and look at the posts saying that at one time the wines from the Rheingau sold at first growth prices. Well, it was the wines from the vineyards I mentioned and maybe a couple of more selling at those prices.
To me the answer to why the MSR does not rest on its laurels, I would answer in two parts (1) I am not sure that this has not been the case with respect to its most famous vineyard - Bernkastler Doktor and (2) because elsewhere the MSR has producers like Egon Mueller, Zilliken, von Schubert, Falkenstein, Reinhold Haart, Schloss Lieser, JJ Prum, Selbach, Willi Schaefer, Fritz Haag, etc., etc., etc., with holdings in most of the great vineyard sites. Note that I understand Schloss Lieser now has some of the Bernkastler Doktor. Have not seen this wine but would love to try it. And, I would love to see the top vineyards of the Rheingau get into the hands of say Zilliken, Donnhoff, Keller, etc., and then see if the issue really is climate change.
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^
Dr Rowald Hepp has done a rather masterful job of putting Humpty-Dumpty back together again
at Schloss Vollrads, after the demise of Graf Matuschka
…and the best Riesling i have drunk in the past decade
was a 1975 Rauenthaler Baiken Spätlese from Schloss Eltz
That’s good to know James. If I see a bottle from recent vintage Vollrads I will give it a try again.
I agree with you about Schloss Eltz. Great wines. If they were still making wine I might not be making the same comments. When did they stop making wine - 1980 or so?
Didn’t know about changes at Schloss Vollrads. Thanks. About what vintages should we look for? After when?
Some interesting information on the Eltz demise:
I am sure some Rheingau estates have been underperforming in longer periods.
But certainly not Breuer. Hard /impossible to find better dry Riesling
Thanks for the link. It’s worthwhile to note that the Rheingau is mentioned therein as “the most famous of Germany’s wine regions.”
Just pulled this for consumption. Do you think 50 years is enough? 
I don’t think you are going to like this wine. You should send it to me. ![[winner.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/07ec25c9fd71159fe15d7f1ba5fad64e91238d0e.gif "winner"){kind=small}
![[worship.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/9/99a8907a1d5b3c023582052741dc72dc9823c044.gif "worship"){kind=small}
I particularly ![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
like the balance of acid and RS in Eva’s Seligmacher.
The best Rheingau wines compete with the MSR as my absolute favorites in Germany.
Favorites, in no particular order:
Leitz
Weil
PJK
Spreitzer
Breuer
Next level:
Kunstler (impressive Spätburgunder as well as Riesling)
Eva Fricke (impressive rose sekt!)
Schloss Johannisberg
Schloss Schonborn (dry Rieslings have been excellent for the past decade, haven’t had much at the Spatlese/Auslese level in recent years)
No recent experience, but some excellent wines in the 2000s:
Prinz
Kessler (both Riesling and Spätburgunder were impressive in the early to mid-2000s; have barely seen the wines since then)
Good, but could be better nowadays. These producers made some outstanding wines way back in the day:
Kloster Eberbach. The historian in me would love to visit this property and wants these wines to live up to their full potential again, as some 1960s and 1970s bottlings have. Both Riesling and Spätburgunder excelled.
von Simmern
Schloss Reinhartshausen
Hupfeld Erben: I purchased several of their wines at auction a couple of years ago, dating from 1971 to 1983. The quality of these bottles definitely exceeded my expectations: even a 1981 Mittelheimer Edelmann Kerner Kabinett was compelling and showing no signs of fading. Kerner can make some excellent wines in Alto Adige, but this was the first German Kerner that I was even remotely impressed by.
Good reputation, but zero experience with them:
Corvers-Kauter, which is leasing several of the von Simmern vineyards
Flick
Hoping they got their act together soon:
Schloss Vollrads - I’ve been burned on these a few times when I’d heard that they had supposedly turned around, and bought what turned out to be a flabby Riesling. I will need some convincing in order to try anything recent from them.
Baron Knyphausen - historic estate that should be making better wines
Von Mumm - under the same ownership as Schloss Johannisberg, which has considerably improved in the past decade. Definitely has potential to make compelling Rieslings, such as the 1949 Hasensprung BA that I tasted at Rieslingfeier a couple of years ago.
Prinz von Hessen: Some very good parcels, but ultimately another one of those aristocratic estates that has not made wines worthy of its name in years. A 1960 Hasensprung Feine Spatlese Cabinet was impressive; more recent wines have hardly been at the same level.
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Hoping you enjoy this bottle!
I had a1971 Langenstück BA a few years ago and it was impressive (is anyone doing anything with this site nowadays?).
Schloss Eltz made some amazing wines back in the day. I set aside one of their Rieslings to celebrate the end of the COVID-19 pandemic when it comes.
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Thank you for the link, Robert. This is more detail than I previously knew about the demise of Eltz (I was only aware that there was a “bad investment”) - then again, the estate became defunct when I was a baby.