Ladybugs

[billnanson]

@Richard T r i m p i

Bill, I suspect you’re right that the little buggies aren’t munching the grapes but taking advantage of incidental sips where there’s damaged skin. Aphids must surely be the plat-du-jour.

Is there disagreement that pyroxenes are the more serious underlying problem? My understanding is that it’s a defensive “reflex bleeding” that the little guys release when agitated (or squashed). I’d be somewhat doubtful that they resort to much defensive chemical Kung-Fu until the grapes are picked, crated, sorted and/or crushed.

RT

There are disagreements over everything Richard though I follow your thoughts completely. And for anyone with access to the blighters, just pick some up and smell the off-yellow excretion that they leave on your finger - it’s pure 2004 to my receptors. The real question is what is the stability of the pyrazines that you smell - most data is not positive to the concept of a lessening with time, and my nose currently fits that scenario.

Wines drunk last week, purely for research you understand!

04 Fourrier Griotte - *GM0 - aromatically fine but disjointed
04 Camille Giroud Latricières - GM5 - the reverse of the Fourrier with good texture and flavour
04 Pascal Lachaux Clos St.Denis - GM3 - somewhere in between the two but perhaps the best overall package
04 Carrick Central otago PN (NZ) - GM0 - very nice indeed…

*Using the KH scale

[Richard_T_r_i_m_p_i]

Bill, nice research.

A more scientific 2008 article related to the topic.

They suggest 6.5 days from dead bug to minimal release of Pyroxenes. What will vignerons be willing to spray, several days before harvest in these days of biodynamie?

There’s also some buzz about a new Soybean aphid. When grapes are in relatively close proximity to soybeans, ladybug outbreaks have been more common and abundant. Are they growing soybeans on the flats below the CdN?

RT

[Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow]

Ladybirds (coccinella) use pyrazines (methoxy-pyrazines) as sexual attractants. They are also used as a defence alert - pick one up & the yellow colour that leach onto your fingers also contains pyrazines.

Richard, from an authority I consider even more of one than “Answers.com” or whatever…the 1/7/2010 Burgundy Report…quoted on another site. (Unfortunately, the author “confuses” the issue by calling them “birds” )

[Berry_Crawford]

This sucks!!!

[Howard_Cooper]

I cannot believe that 2004 and 2011 are the only vintages with ladybugs. In what other vintages have they been present in large number?

[Keith_Levenberg]

@billnanson

for bug-lovers a pic from Morey (this week!)

Icky icky. What’s this a picture of? Are those fermenting grapes under the bugs??

[Peter_C]

Looks like I’m not buying any 2011 red burgundies.

[dcornutt]

@billnanson

@Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow

Bill, I’m pretty sure I’ve read several articles that include that ladybugs (maybe not all types) actually invade the ripe grapes to eat, after the stems are dislodged. Though they cannot digest acidic things…when the grapes are ripe, they can. Can a ladybug eat grape jelly? - Answers Do moths eat grapes? - Answers is an admittedly not authoratative answer, but one that came quickly with Google. That’s why I’ve believed that once the bug infestation is spotted, it might be too late to do anything about it.

answers.com - hmm - well that looks authoritative

for bug-lovers a pic from Morey (this week!)

Kellen Lignier. That looks like a serious amount of those buggers.

[Brady_Daniels]

Wow. I just got back from Burgundy today. I walked miles through the vineyards of Vosne and Chambolle and swear I didn’t see one ladybug. I think Bill’s photos are shopped. (kidding!) I am intrigued to see where this subject goes.

Bill, have your grower-friends been able to quantify the amount of ladybugs versus 2004? Have you found this everywhere you visited or were some vineyards clean(ish)? Thanks.

[billnanson]

That’s you off somebody’s Xmas card list Don!

I also saw not many in the vines Brady, but they must have been in the clusters because although the baskets of grapes looked relatively free, the waste water and loose small grapes that are shaken free by the vibrating table that feeds the rolling triage table is where all the concentrations of ‘birds’ have appeared - all the photos like the Morey one above and the green one that started this thread are where the bugs are concentrated. A few have made it into the fermentation tanks. Various bug photos appear in the posts under the following header http://www.burgundy-report.com/diary/category/harvests/vintage-2011/

Versus 2004 far, far more have been removed this way as that year when they were on rather than in the clusters, which is why many more were seen on the rolling triage table in 04 - don’t ask me why they weren’t shaken loose the same way in 04 as 2011 - I’m not familliar with the dynamics of coccinella shaking physics…

At the start of last week 10x more (conservative) bugs under the shaking table in 2011 versus 2004, by Saturday more like 3-5x. I trust only my own eyes/camera on this so haven’t bothered quizzing locals if they’ve seen it go up or down.
Maybe 10x less in 2011 (looks about right) actually on the rolling triage table.
Some in the fermenters but I can’t say more or less than 2004 because I didn’t take note / realise it was unusual in 2004 - my first vintage

Where do they excrete most? Don’t know, I only know that I’ll be buying reds based only on personal tastings of wines that have been in bottle at least 6 months - regardless of how fine and free of rot particular grapes have been. Others without my sensitivity likely need not worry…

[David_K_o_l_i_n]

Thanks for the report, Bill.

[Berry_Crawford]

@billnanson

I only know that I’ll be buying reds based only on personal tastings of wines that have been in bottle at least 6 months

Amen to that!

[Sean_Moore]

@Berry Crawford

This sucks!!!

Perhaps for those who drink wine merely because it tastes good or is yummy; but for those who first and foremost expect wine to convey a sense of place, these 2011 Burgs may very well fit the bill nicely, conveying to all a sense of a place with a considerable ladybug infestation.

[Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow]

In other words a “place” you wouldn’t want to be?

[dcornutt]

@billnanson

That’s you off somebody’s Xmas card list Don!

Darn it. I like Kellen too. Hopefully she will forgive me.

[Vincent_Fritzsche]

@billnanson

for bug-lovers a pic from Morey (this week!)

This picture looks like a catch basin under a slotted section of a sorting line, where juice from grape totes, shot berries and some rotten berries collect, along with lots and lots of lady bugs and earwigs. Any lady bugs that do get through to the fermenter can usually be found climbing to the highest peaks of berries and stems in the bin, and are usually easy to pluck off. They’re in run away! run away! mode at this point.

I have no basis for serious opinion about ladybugs and '04 Burgs, but I can’t imagine they were a factor. There are lady bugs every year. Lots of them. Spiders, earwigs, etc. as well. I can’t imagine in one year they caused such issues and yet don’t seem to affect other years.

[Keith_Levenberg]

Thanks for the info Vincent. It’s a scary picture but it’s certainly less scary as a refuse pile than as a vat of fermenting wine.

[Brady_Daniels]

@billnanson

Where do they excrete most? Don’t know, I only know that I’ll be buying reds based only on personal tastings of wines that have been in bottle at least 6 months - regardless of how fine and free of rot particular grapes have been. Others without my sensitivity likely need not worry…

Thanks for the follow-up Bill! One more question. Were the GM’s detectable six months after bottling in the 2004’s? I thought it took longer for the trait to become apparent?

[Don_Cornwell]

After reading the article from the Ohio State Ag Dept in Richard Trimpi’s post, I think I finally understand why 2004 was such a problem vintage for ladybugs — the massive oidium problems with the reds.

From Ohio State Bulletin, Midwest Grape Production Guide Bulletin 919-05:
In many instances, 10 or more beetles may be found per cluster on the damaged fruit (Figure 76). The lady beetles seldom cause primary damage biting through the skin of the grapes with their mandibles. However, they do take advantage of breaks in the skins caused by yellow jackets, hornets, birds, raccoons, as well as diseases.

If you’ve ever read about oidium, you understand that one of the things it does is that a spike-like structure penetrates the skin of young berries. So if you’ve had oidium in your vineyard, whether for pinot or chardonnay, you’ll probably find lots of ladybugs at harvest time. As the article from Ohio State explains, they come back to opportunistically feed on the juice from the damaged fruit as their supply of aphids begins to dry up in the late summer. They are social as well, so they tend to aggregate.

I’ve seen some descriptions of “powdery mildew” (aka oidium) in some vineyards in 2011 as well descriptions of lots of rot in certain places (e.g. Echezaux and Savigny Les Beaune). Both penetrate the grape skins. So I’m going to guess that the highest incidence of ladybugs occurred wherever the particular vineyard had some degree of rot or mildew.

Ray and Bill: Does my hypothesis seem to hold true with what you observed in the various vineyards?

This also suggests that seeing a number of ladybugs on a given bunch of grapes should be a big red flag for the pickers — leave that bunch alone!

[Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow]

@Brady Daniels

@billnanson

Where do they excrete most? Don’t know, I only know that I’ll be buying reds based only on personal tastings of wines that have been in bottle at least 6 months - regardless of how fine and free of rot particular grapes have been. Others without my sensitivity likely need not worry…

Thanks for the follow-up Bill! One more question. Were the GM’s detectable six months after bottling in the 2004’s? I thought it took longer for the trait to become apparent?

Not Bill (obviously…or I’d be a lot more content with my life ), but , yes…it was certainly in full bloom when I visited and reported on the “other” board in April 2007 of the plague, which I’d never heard about before stumbling onto it at many domaines.

And, I am fairly convinced, as are many winemakers there, that the ladybugs’ pyrazine “perfume” is the culprit. Why the ladybugs are so much of a problem in 2004, and, seemingly, in 2011 is a separate issue. But, they are/were undeniably abundant in both years during the harvest and vinification. I wonder whether there is any sensible plan of attack in 2011? or any year?

As Don pointed out, and as I pointed out earlier on this thread from reading the same article, though they might not bore into the grapes, once the road is cleared, they rush into the swimming pool within the ripe grapes.So, it isn’t a superficial problem, ie, one that can be eliminated at the tables de trie.