How much do you add at the crusher? Do you make the same add across the board, or do you add on a case by case basis depending on the condition of the grapes? Has anyone been adding less to rreduce total SO2 levels overall?
What say you?
At KB, August West/Sandler/Roar, and Outpost/Schrader/Maybach/Two Hands, etc., sulfur was used at the crusher on a case by case basis. Not wide spread use at all at least what from what I have seen working at all the above.
AP Vin uses some at the crusher on most everything, IIRC.
40 ppm for white free-run, 60 ppm for press cut. bumped up 10 - 20 ppm if things look bad. Has never precluded natives from happening in my experience (but lack of has allowed ML!).
40 - 60 for reds depending upon condition and cold-soak period.
Have you actually experienced lower totals depending on the crusher/press add? I have added the range between 30 & 70 and have never seen much difference at pressing reds (always 10 - 15 total?) or completion of ML in whites (usually 60 - 70 ppm total after a 50 ppm add). It seems to get higher at pressing/ML completion when the ferment struggles (despite not knowingly adding more at pressing, etc?).
Total SO2 is a weird one for me. It seems based in an alternate universe. I actually saw my totals go down in 2008 reds after a recent racking…by 20 - 30 ppm. Not sure how to explain that one. I tend to not worry about it all that much, except that when I have whites that get high (say, > 100) I know they are much more fragile and oxidation-prone.
I tend to think of SO2 at the press/crusher as just sort of disappearing into the ether during fermentation.
It varies. At Eno we generally add at least 30ppm (all reds) and up to about 50 if there was some botrytis or other nasty stuff in the fruit. At Harrington (also all reds), it’s more case by case and in many cases we don’t add any.
I always was told that “the yeast eat it”. ![[wow.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/7/7d450e9830889c8943b674446a21b7254cad657e.gif "wow"){kind=small}
No matter the cause, it does seem to disappear. We use 80ppm at the crusher, which I know is higher than most peope use. But we also do an extended cold soak (5 to 8 days), so I like the idea of having knocked back any native populations that might kick off on their own. We also do punchdown-like mix-ups of the fruit each day during cold in order to get good sugar and pH readings - which introduces a lot of air to the juice. The extra SO2 should help guard against oxydation. We’ve never had any problems getting fermentations to start with the yeast we use (AMH), so I guess we’re not using too much KMBS.
50ppm whites + 25 if bot present
55ppm reds
in school got sample from willamette winery that used kyriakos prescribed 125ppm with the advisory that this would yield greater proportion of large polymeric pigments. it didn’t. this winery does make some of my favorite pinots, but i’m not convinced this has anything to do with so2.
totals don’t seem influenced by crush additions.
I thought KMS was a line of high end shampoos/conditioners?
I use almost no SO2 before fermentation, except if I see more than an occasional cluster of botrytis in the fruit. I like to wait until just after completion of ML before adding it. Some years, like '06, I used a lot before PN cold soak.
My main concern for this next year is the fact that I am considering doing some early ferm ML inoculations, and I don’t want the free to be too high and inhibit the ML. I know '08 was a strange year, but we had such high alcohols (and with Zin, even if you aren’t trying, you can get high alcohols) that we had a ton of stuck ML’s. I know there was a thread at the “other place” a year or so ago about long ML’s and improved quality, but frankly I don’t see any reason it would cause improved quality. There are certain other by-products of a long ML that I think people might be mistaking for the actual ML ferm causing an improvement in quality (very long delay of adding SO2, possibly more evaporation if putting the barrels in a warm room/in the sun, etc), but the ML ferm itself? Nope. Don’t see it. So that is my motivation for lowering the KMS at the crusher. When I started at Peachy we used 60ppm, and last year I talked them down to 30, with higher use if the lot looked like it needed it. Our estate fruit in particuoar is always super clean and double sorted, so I don’t really see the need.
Has anyone ever checked SO2’s during a ferm to see at what point it all goes away? Is it early? Towards the end?
We innoculate for ML and warm our barrel room up to about 64 degrees to get the MLs done early. We don’t usually run any panels until we think we’re done with ML, which is usually in late January. At that point we usually see no free SO2 and under 10ppm total. And we never seem to have any issues wih ML completing.
Never checked SO2 during fermentation. I’ll be interested to hear how your early ferm ML inoculations go, Linda. I’ve never given that a try although I’ve read that it can be done without negative consequences. I’ve always waited until primary is just about done to inoculate for ML.
I’d be interested to hear, too.
There are a number of examples of successful wines with simultaneous ML and primary. Paul Hobbs being the most obvious example that jumps to mind.
I don’t believe that they add SO2 at the crusher/press pan, though.
I would imagine that there is little to no free very quickly, but have nothing but intuition to back that up.
[quote]My main concern for this next year is the fact that I am considering doing some early ferm ML inoculations, and I don’t want the free to be too high and inhibit the ML.[/quote
High totals will slow and possibly kill MLB, as well. But I’ve only heard of that happening if too much SO2 has been added post-primary to mimic the delayed MLF that is seen in France, for example. Of course the delayed MLF proponents are trying to do with SO2 what nature does naturally through cold cellar temperature. When I worked on Long Island in 1990 and 1999 the MLFs didn’t really get going until June. In Central Otago in 2004 the winery had a room where it could warm up barrels but that was only reserved for the Chardonnay. The Pinots were not in a temperature-controlled room, and thus proceeded at their own rate.
When you say early ML innoculations are you meaning concommitant to the primary? I’ve had success in the past innoculating at (-) 0.7 Brix. Never innoculated earlier. I don’t innoculate at Seavey.
Yes, I’m talking about inoculating when the primary ferm temp reaches about 70F. I have read sevral journal articles giving pros and cons to doing this, but I have never heard of anyone I know who does this having any negative issues.
Hey Jeremy, I could be wrong, but I believe the thinking here is that SO2 bonds at the terminal bonding site of the tannin/anthocyanin hybrid, essentially ‘locking’ the complex and preventing further polymerization. This keeps the polymeric pigment at a size that prevents it from precipitating out of solution. I don’t necessarily buy it either, especially if you have good color to start.
We do very long cold soaks (10-14 days), and use 50ppm at the crusher for reds. I’m not sure we even gain anything, it probably just makes us feel better, but it is certainly gone at pressing. If I were going to do concurrent primary and secondary, I wouldn’t worry much about crushpad additions.
Linda, I still think long malos are great. I don’t know why they seem to produce better wines, it could be for the reasons you state, but consider me a big fan. We don’t do it by sulfur adds, we do it with temperature and no nutrient adds during fermentation I think helps too. Cool temps plus religious topping allows you to wait until May/June for malos to finish and not have VA problems. For us, anyway…