Killing the goose that laid the golden egg - - - or, another open letter to the WB community

[David_Bu3ker]

@larry schaffer

David,

You are correct - but this board is a bit unique in how and why it got started . . . .

The real question is how to balance ‘freedom of speech’ with some ‘censorship’ . . .

Cheers

Same question as usual. Just a different degree.

[larry_schaffer]

@Steve Ritchie

@D@vid Bu3ker

Every site goes through this. The question is who stays and who goes.

Agreed – I guess the question/concern for me is whether the WB’ers who have contributed a lot of positive insight, humor, and passion will be the ones who leave.

Steve,

I agree entirely - and it’s a bummer that some that fall into this category have already done so. Of course, some in this category were the worst at either instigating or continuing negative personal crap which really does not need to exist here - at least in the Wine Talk area IMHO.

What you’ll never know is how many either have already gone or have no interest in being ‘active’ because of what’s already going on without a heavy hand of moderation . . .

Cheers!

[Dav1dZ]

This board shouldn’t exist to help wineries market themselves - or put differently, if we’re going to just be crowd-sourced advertising then we should all be comped for it.

Given how difficult it is for folks to read criticism, it’s a good thing if a winery feels like there’s negativity; it probably means there are folks arguing pro and con and a real debate about the merits of the wines.

[larry_schaffer]

@Todd F r e n c h

I had a choice starting out, and have a choice at any time, to consider how much moderation to have. Obviously at the get-go it was to be the antithesis of what most of us came from, which was the smart move at the time. Many absolutely adore the fact that there’s so much room here to say what you want, and, of course, some do not like it. Impossible to please all, but who knows, perhaps at some point, I’ll change to mega-moderating and then run the risk of people complaining that it’s too square and rule-tastic.

I do believe that you’ve created a generally positive attitude here, and you deserve a lot of credit for doing so. It’s impossible to please everyone and we all know that.

The real question is to ensure that people can speak their minds without ‘crossing the line’ - and establishing and enforcing that line. Seems silly to have to do that - I can’t believe some don’t see how ‘personal’ some of their attacks truly are at times . . .

Cheers.

[Kirk.Grant]

What about all the positive love for wines/wineries like EMH Black Cat, Liquid Farm, Patricia Green, Dirty & Rowdy, Rhys, and some other places that I’ve seen posted here? I will say that in the worst of moments I can become a degenerate. However, I think all of us have moments, topics, and themes that tend to send us into a less composed version of ourselves. I also think that when that happens there’s value in owning it at making amends. Hopefully we can collectively make an effort to simply focus on the positive experiences here. However, when you have a community that you feel connected to…and then you feel slighted or mistreated by someone in that community; I think it’s common to want to share your experience within the community.

[Alan_Rath]

At this point does it really matter? I made comments like this when I first came over in 2009, and was roundly ridiculed, and have made similar comments from time to time over the years. I’m a consumer, and a big boy, so I can just ignore flak. But growers and producers can’t as easily ignore things, and it’s understandable that they don’t want to participate in an environment that can turn hostile quickly.

I greatly enjoy the board, but it is very sad that there are so few producers participating. Some people actually like that, and would prefer to have discussions among themselves, without the professional insight and experience that growers and winemakers add. I’ve never understood that.

But the die is cast, it really doesn’t matter at this point…

[CFu]

@larry schaffer

Sounds like eBob with better results after the purge

Do breweries take part in discussions as well over there?

Cheers

No different from here. Even with their heavy moderation a lot of producers decline to comment due to the same complaints people have Here.

Every web forum is basically the same in varying degrees. Hoping wineries/producers to join is a failing task

[larry_schaffer]

@DavidZ

This board shouldn’t exist to help wineries market themselves - or put differently, if we’re going to just be crowd-sourced advertising then we should all be comped for it.

Given how difficult it is for folks to read criticism, it’s a good thing if a winery feels like there’s negativity; it probably means there are folks arguing pro and con and a real debate about the merits of the wines.

I agree wholeheartedly - and any winery who does not probably shouldn’t take part here. This board should exist to discuss wines and wineries - their pros AND cons, value, new discoveries, getting together with others, etc. It should be an open forum so that folks do not feel intimidated to be a part of it should they want to be.

But I will disagree about the negativity thing - it’s one thing to not like a wine; it’s another to call it some of the names some of the wines here are called . . . The point that the OP was making was an overall feeling of negativity . . .

Cheers

[M_Hudson]

I have asked each of my mailing list wineries about their feelings about this board, if I had the chance in a confidential setting.

All i can say is the response was far from positive. Not for the bickering reasons listed here, but more for the type of person (customer) this board seems to attract. (which maybe is related to the bickering and accusing, and condescension) A few had positive things to say, but easily 6 out of ten did not.

I dont know if it is this board in specific, or places like this including bloggers who somehow act as if they are RP when they visit a winery.

All I know is I stopped mentioning anything about WB unless someone asked me how I heard about the winery and it was here.

[Neal.Mollen]

@larry schaffer

Neal,

The problem here is that these ‘bullies’ don’t get silenced by the masses - or even by the mods at times. This is not to blame the mods per se, but the whole idea of putting someone on ‘ignore’ or whatever does not solve the problem. They simply should not be tolerated - except perhaps in other boards here where that type of communication is more the norm.

And it bums me out that folks can’t speak ‘openly’ about ALL wineries here - worried they will be ‘blackballed’ from that winery or thought of differently. Wine should be about ‘like and dislike’ versus ‘good and bad’ and there really should not be any sacred cows . . .

Cheers

There are two very different models for running a board like this. The founding fathers (and mommas) of this one were fleeing King George’s oppression and settled on a (very) light hand, and the results are what they are. You might think the downside of the Squires-ian model is sterility, but absolute power corrupts absolutely and what ends up happening is petty personal power plays and vendettas. And sterility.

You pick your poison I suppose.

Again, I do not think there are a lot of miscreants here. One swears he will never post again every 60 days or so but does. A couple can’t help but make everything into a political argument. Really, there aren’t very many.

[Corey_N]

@larry schaffer

it’s one thing to not like a wine; it’s another to call it some of the names some of the wines here are called

I think that name calling happens extremely infrequently (at least regarding wines). The Wagner wines get called plenty of names, but I struggle to think of any others that elicit such widespread scorn.

[Howard_Cooper]

@DavidZ

This board shouldn’t exist to help wineries market themselves - or put differently, if we’re going to just be crowd-sourced advertising then we should all be comped for it.

Given how difficult it is for folks to read criticism, it’s a good thing if a winery feels like there’s negativity; it probably means there are folks arguing pro and con and a real debate about the merits of the wines.

To me, rating a wine poorly is fine and is well within bounds.

But, there are people on this board who go well beyond that even to the point of personal attacks on wineries, wine stores and their owners. There are also people ITB on this board who attack anyone who bypasses the three tier system and tries to bring better prices to people.

[Steve_Ritchie]

@Todd F r e n c h

I had a choice starting out, and have a choice at any time, to consider how much moderation to have. Obviously at the get-go it was to be the antithesis of what most of us came from, which was the smart move at the time. Many absolutely adore the fact that there’s so much room here to say what you want, and, of course, some do not like it. Impossible to please all, but who knows, perhaps at some point, I’ll change to mega-moderating and then run the risk of people complaining that it’s too square and rule-tastic.

I for one think you strike a good balance – you don’t micromanage but you do call out the biggest violators (I watched you deal with the recent train-wreck of a thread regarding NY wines with amazing patience). I guess what I am thinking about is what the community can do beyond relying on moderators to do our dirty work. I don’t think we should simply expect the moderators to create the “perfect society” for us.

[Ian_Sutton]

@Neal.Mollen

You might think the downside of the Squires-ian model …

Oi !!! leave me out of it!!!

[jcoley3]

@Neal.Mollen

There are two very different models for running a board like this. The founding fathers (and mommas) of this one were fleeing King George’s oppression and settled on a (very) light hand, and the results are what they are. You might think the downside of the Squires-ian model is sterility, but absolute power corrupts absolutely and what ends up happening is petty personal power plays and vendettas. And sterility.

You pick your poison I suppose.

Again, I do not think there are a lot of miscreants here. One swears he will never post again every 60 days or so but does. A couple can’t help but make everything into a political argument. Really, there aren’t very many.

I’m with this. I think most of us do our best to be good “citizens” here. I’ve butted heads with a few people, but at the end of it I think I have one person that I will not engage with (though not on ignore), and one topic that I have decided to leave alone moving forward.

I think Jay’s advice in the OP is good advice. I can think of one instance where someone took what I thought was a really uncalled for shot at something I posted, typed up my own withering tidbit, and then decided against posting. I posted something a lot less inflammatory and ended up with a much better interaction.

I do also think it is worth trying to put the best possible interpretation on someone’s intentions, rather than the worst, when posting here.

[RS_Beck]

It seems pretty simple to me. I believe there are two choices. We can either run around the board trying to nudge, cajole, or shame people into behaving the way we think they ought to behave, or we can just take individual responsibility for ignoring the behavior each of us finds unpleasant.

I find the nudgers, cajolers, and shamers to be as annoying and obnoxious as their dopplegangers. I’ve noticed, in my furious skimming, there are a few guys who run around here telling us all how polite they are, especially in comparison to whoever – and it seems pretty patently arrogant, impolite, and incorrect to proclaim such a thing. IMO, it’s just two different and equally tedious ways to try to feel superior.

I prefer a Wild West type of atmosphere. Let everyone spew and I do the filtering. I see the internet the same way I view my television set. I’m happy to skim past anything that doesn’t entertain me. Sometimes I lean on the scroll button so hard, it starts to smoke.

And that’s exactly why I am superior.

Feel free to carry on.

It seems like we have to have a thread like this every few days.

All part of the WB experience.

[Mark_B]

@RS Beck

It seems pretty simple to me. I believe there are two choices. We can either run around the board trying to nudge, cajole, or shame people into behaving the way we think they ought to behave, or we can just take individual responsibility for ignoring the behavior each of us finds unpleasant.

I find the nudgers, cajolers, and shamers to be as annoying and obnoxious as their dopplegangers. I’ve noticed, in my furious skimming, there are a few guys who run around here telling us all how polite they are, especially in comparison to whoever – and it seems pretty patently arrogant, impolite, and incorrect to proclaim such a thing. IMO, it’s just two different and equally tedious ways to try to feel superior.

I prefer a Wild West type of atmosphere. Let everyone spew and I do the filtering. I see the internet the same way I view my television set. I’m happy to skim past anything that doesn’t entertain me. Sometimes I lean on the scroll button so hard, it starts to smoke.

And that’s exactly why I am superior.

Feel free to carry on.

It seems like we have to have a thread like this every few days.

All part of the WB experience.

Well said. My thoughts are pretty much inline with what you laid out here.

[Scott_Brunson]

@RS Beck

It seems pretty simple to me. I believe there are two choices. We can either run around the board trying to nudge, cajole, or shame people into behaving the way we think they ought to behave, or we can just take individual responsibility for ignoring the behavior each of us finds unpleasant.

I find the nudgers, cajolers, and shamers to be as annoying and obnoxious as their dopplegangers. I’ve noticed, in my furious skimming, there are a few guys who run around here telling us all how polite they are, especially in comparison to whoever – and it seems pretty patently arrogant, impolite, and incorrect to proclaim such a thing. IMO, it’s just two different and equally tedious ways to try to feel superior.

I prefer a Wild West type of atmosphere. Let everyone spew and I do the filtering. I see the internet the same way I view my television set. I’m happy to skim past anything that doesn’t entertain me. Sometimes I lean on the scroll button so hard, it starts to smoke.

And that’s exactly why I am superior.

Feel free to carry on.

It seems like we have to have a thread like this every few days.

All part of the WB experience.

Thank you.
I don’t think this board is any more negative now than it was when I joined but there is a handful of posters who contribute nothing of substance, only antagonism. I like the debates and the heated discussions as long as they don’t get personal.
Also, great points from David Z and Neal M upthread.

[Mark_C]

Criticism is one thing and ad hominem attacks another. One can be critical of a wine or winery or of another’s opinion without denigrating that person.

Also, a thick skin is very useful and perhaps even essential. When the occasional ad-hominem attack occurs, just ignore it. One wins by being magnanimous without even entering the contest.

[Michael_S_Monie]

@M Champney

Criticism is one thing and ad hominem attacks another. One can be critical of a wine or winery or of another’s opinion without denigrating that person.

Also, a thick skin is very useful and perhaps even essential. When the occasional ad-hominem attack occurs, just ignore it. One wins by being magnanimous without even entering the contest.

Careful or you might have someone describing the technical definition of what constitutes as an ad hominem attack; I know because it happened to me.