Jamie Goode on brett, TCA, ladybugs, smoke taint and mousiness

[Otto_Forsberg]

But Otto was saying that he was being strictly scientific and suggesting I was not. I reserve the right to be as nitpicking as the next guy.

I was not or at least I was not trying to. My only point was to make sure people don’t use the terms incorrectly. I didn’t mean to offend anybody, but getting my point across softly and politely across the net has never been my forté.

I grant you that you are absolutely right when saying mousiness ultimately isn’t a taste but a smell, but if we go down that road, then EVERYTHING in wine except for the sweetness, the bitterness, the acids, the saline tones and the umami are not flavors, but aromas. Tasting cherry in your wine? Nope, it’s a smell. How about leather? A smell too. How about banana bubblegum? Definitely a smell.

Exactly as you said in one of your posts above, except for the five (or so) basic tastes that tongue can detect, all the flavors a human can taste are actually aromas that are picked up retronasally and brain does the magic turning into those aromas into flavors. Calling these flavors aromas instead of flavors is strictly scientifically accurate but also rather pointless, because brains don’t work that way. In normal speech people associate “smell” by something we can sense through sniffing something and “taste” by something we can sense through tasting it, even though the exact sensation still happens in the nose. That’s the long and detailed explanation why I would avoid using the term “mousy smell” when describing wine.

[Otto_Forsberg]

I am of the mind that these cidery notes prevalent in natural wines, specifically, are actually a combination of things. The acetaldehyde mentioned here, but also additional acids created by VA and LAB which are given a little more room to play when SO2 adds are low, especially as the pH climbs above 3.5. We make a number of varietal piquettes, and all show various facets of these notes associated with wild ales or ciders, primarily because with the water add, the pH can get pretty high for where we would normally comfortably ferment. Since we add some wine back before bottling anyway, we have started adding it at press so it doesn’t spend any time in the tank in the “danger zone.”

There are some in the natural wine would who would argue that some amount of these flaws ARE a part of terroir if their precursors are present on sound fruit in the vineyard, in the same way that many would claim you can’t fully capture terroir without only native yeast for fermentation. I even have a friend who goes as far as saying mouse is terroir+vintage specific. I don’t feel this way myself, as I do think in large enough quantities, any of these compounds can mask terroir and variety, but it’s a fun and interesting conversation nonetheless.

And regarding THP/mouse and non-responders, I think the science is still out, but in my opinion it is actually low saliva pH and not a lack of sensory ability that causes some people to not experience it. Some mouths just don’t have the chemistry to volatilize THP!

Great stuff, thank you for your input. We’ve been discussing with my friends on that mouth pH thing regarding how differently we taste mousiness (how quickly the character appears, how intensely one tastes it), but I’ve never thought it could be that the pH threshold to volatilize THP could be so low in some people’s mouth that the wine never turns unclean - I thought the mouth pH was well above the threshold. However, as I have no idea what is the normal mouth pH and how much there is variance, your explanation could actually be a viable possibility!

[Kevin_Kitagawa]

However, the “cidery” note I was talking is a very distinctive, funky and natural aroma that has nothing to do with oxidation, but instead is this aroma and flavor that gives a very fresh, appley cider character to many natural wines. For example I just had a natural orange wine a few days ago (Trapl Karpatenschiefer Grüner Veltliner 2017) that didn’t show any oxidative characteristics, but still felt very “appley” and “cidery” in the most classic natural wine way as possible. I have a strong feeling it’s just Brett or some other prevalent microbe.

I’ve associated it with VA as I see it in wines where the winemaker has intentionally tried to have more VA in the wine…my guess is to give it the perception of more acidity…In the case of Juras because they were able to get a bit more ripeness…

[Markus_S]

… “mousiness” because it’s a little like the smell of a mouse cage…

I really hate this word, not because of it’s meaning, but who has ever got close enough to a mouse to smell them?? Even the mice I trap have never really smelled.

[Markus_S]

… the so-called “natty” style of the wine?

Dreadlocks have a taste now?

[David_Bu3ker]

… the so-called “natty” style of the wine?

Dreadlocks have a taste now?

No…think NattyBo.

[John_Morris]

… “mousiness” because it’s a little like the smell of a mouse cage…

I really hate this word, not because of it’s meaning, but who has ever got close enough to a mouse to smell them?? Even the mice I trap have never really smelled.

It refers to the smell of a mouse cage. And you don’t have to be that close to one to pick that up.

[TomHill]

… “mousiness” because it’s a little like the smell of a mouse cage…

I really hate this word, not because of it’s meaning, but who has ever got close enough to a mouse to smell them?? Even the mice I trap have never really smelled.

It refers to the smell of a mouse cage. And you don’t have to be that close to one to pick that up.

You’re dealing w/ the wrong mouses, Markus. I would invite you out to LosAlamos and have you unstack one of my
woodpiles. When you do, you’ll often uncover an old mouse’s nest filled w/ stale mouse urine, old mouse poop, and a wretched
smell of decay. It’s a very unique smell that I often describe as “hantavirus”, because that’s where you can pick up
the hantavirus disease.
But I’m glad you make the effort to sniff up the mouses you trap. Broadens your wine experience.
Tom

[Bryan_Carr]

You’re dealing w/ the wrong mouses, Markus. I would invite you out to LosAlamos and have you unstack one of my
woodpiles. When you do, you’ll often uncover an old mouse’s nest filled w/ stale mouse urine, old mouse poop, and a wretched
smell of decay. It’s a very unique smell that I often describe as “hantavirus”, because that’s where you can pick up
the hantavirus disease.
But I’m glad you make the effort to sniff up the mouses you trap. Broadens your wine experience.

Learning experiences lurk in the strangest of places!

Also, this is a great and informative thread, thanks all for the info everyone!

[John_Morris]

Indeed, we’re learning a lot about Berserkers’ interactions with dead animals.

[Ben_M_a_n_d_l_e_r]

This is an interesting post for me to read. I actually just finished reading Flawless and one of the reasons I did was because I was curious about the origin of what I generally call a “real cider” note in wines. I went to college in the West Country of England and had a lot of ciders there (especially scrumpy) that had a very characteristic funky apple note to them that I have also seen in some wines and always thought was an indicator of oxidation, I think because it reminded me a little of old apple cores and because I generally only noticed it in older wines. I have only ever noticed this in red wines, especially older Bordeaux, but also some Burgundy, Rioja, Priorat, and a few younger reds from here in Virginia.

Am I mischaracterizing this, do you think? Is the “real cider” note I’m getting actually Brett?

You really have to pinpoint which aroma you are talking about. There are two prevalent cidery notes both in ciders and in wines that are a result of oxidation:
The oxidation of alcohol into acetaldehyde: the sharp and tangy green apple note that lends the very distinctive character to Fino Sherry and Vin Jaune. Boosts the sharp green apple notes in ciders.
The oxidation of flavor compounds and other compounds: the typical bruised apple and apple core aroma of old whites, very aged reds, Tawny Port and oxidative ciders. This is probably the note you have in mind?

However, the “cidery” note I was talking is a very distinctive, funky and natural aroma that has nothing to do with oxidation, but instead is this aroma and flavor that gives a very fresh, appley cider character to many natural wines. For example I just had a natural orange wine a few days ago (Trapl Karpatenschiefer Grüner Veltliner 2017) that didn’t show any oxidative characteristics, but still felt very “appley” and “cidery” in the most classic natural wine way as possible. I have a strong feeling it’s just Brett or some other prevalent microbe.

Thing is, I’m not sure, but of the three things you mention, what I’m thinking of sounds most like the last one. It’s an extremely distinctive apple cider note, and I’ve noticed it in wines without any other indication of oxidation that I could detect. Have you ever found that note in non-natural wines?

[John_Morris]

Here’s an experiment for someone: Find a wine that has mousiness at the back. Then add a little baking soda to the wine in a glass and see if you can smell it.

I wish I hadn’t dumped that mousy Cahors now!

[Steve_Slatcher]

Otto - You drive me nuts. Can’t you find a better way to share the vast knowledge you have?

Sorry, I guess not. I’m much better at it face-to-face than in internet!

You should take down that flag and write a book IMO.

(Despite being armed with all the information about mousiness, and not being a stranger to natural wines, I still cannot relate to the fault at all, so am coming round to the view that I must be insensitive to it. I suppose that is a good thing from a personal pleasure angle.)

[Wes_Barton]

This is an interesting post for me to read. I actually just finished reading Flawless and one of the reasons I did was because I was curious about the origin of what I generally call a “real cider” note in wines. I went to college in the West Country of England and had a lot of ciders there (especially scrumpy) that had a very characteristic funky apple note to them that I have also seen in some wines and always thought was an indicator of oxidation, I think because it reminded me a little of old apple cores and because I generally only noticed it in older wines. I have only ever noticed this in red wines, especially older Bordeaux, but also some Burgundy, Rioja, Priorat, and a few younger reds from here in Virginia.

Am I mischaracterizing this, do you think? Is the “real cider” note I’m getting actually Brett?

You really have to pinpoint which aroma you are talking about. There are two prevalent cidery notes both in ciders and in wines that are a result of oxidation:
The oxidation of alcohol into acetaldehyde: the sharp and tangy green apple note that lends the very distinctive character to Fino Sherry and Vin Jaune. Boosts the sharp green apple notes in ciders.
The oxidation of flavor compounds and other compounds: the typical bruised apple and apple core aroma of old whites, very aged reds, Tawny Port and oxidative ciders. This is probably the note you have in mind?

However, the “cidery” note I was talking is a very distinctive, funky and natural aroma that has nothing to do with oxidation, but instead is this aroma and flavor that gives a very fresh, appley cider character to many natural wines. For example I just had a natural orange wine a few days ago (Trapl Karpatenschiefer Grüner Veltliner 2017) that didn’t show any oxidative characteristics, but still felt very “appley” and “cidery” in the most classic natural wine way as possible. I have a strong feeling it’s just Brett or some other prevalent microbe.

Thing is, I’m not sure, but of the three things you mention, what I’m thinking of sounds most like the last one. It’s an extremely distinctive apple cider note, and I’ve noticed it in wines without any other indication of oxidation that I could detect. Have you ever found that note in non-natural wines?

I know of a shared winemaking facility that had a cider maker as one of the tenants. Several of the fermenting (red) wines picked up that cidery note and required intervention. The alleged culprit was the Champagne yeast used for the cider.

[Otto_Forsberg]

Here’s an experiment for someone: Find a wine that has mousiness at the back. Then add a little baking soda to the wine in a glass and see if you can smell it.

I wish I hadn’t dumped that mousy Cahors now!

I’ve been thinking of doing this experiment in multiple occasions, but the problem is that all the mousy wines I taste are always in tastings and other events, never in my home!

[Otto_Forsberg]

Thing is, I’m not sure, but of the three things you mention, what I’m thinking of sounds most like the last one. It’s an extremely distinctive apple cider note, and I’ve noticed it in wines without any other indication of oxidation that I could detect. Have you ever found that note in non-natural wines?

Never. This “cidery” / “appley” note is an aroma that makes me immediately think of natural wines. Not all natural wines (well, actually relatively few) exhibit that aroma, but whenever I pick up that note, they are quite consistently from the extremist end of the non-interventionist spectrum.

[Jayson_Cohen]

Here’s an experiment for someone: Find a wine that has mousiness at the back. Then add a little baking soda to the wine in a glass and see if you can smell it.

I wish I hadn’t dumped that mousy Cahors now!

I’ve been thinking of doing this experiment in multiple occasions, but the problem is that all the mousy wines I taste are always in tastings and other events, never in my home!

And I don’t recommend carrying around and pulling out a little plastic bag full of baking powder. People will definitely get the wrong idea.

[John_Morris]

[m_ristev]

i am very sensitive to mouse and often times can identify an off aroma in these spoiled wines. typically the longer the wine is exposed to oxygen the more pronounced it becomes. the smell is somewhat similar to peanut shells, perhaps rancid ones?

[Alan_Rath]

Damn you, just spit out my coffee!