John,
I’m here. I had a lengthy wine dinner last night, and just got up a little while ago, but am delighted to see there’s a pretty active thread here. It seems the thread has gotten a lot of stem lovers out of the woodwork, and I appreciate them stating their preference here. I have started a poll on stem inclusion in Pinot Noir in another thread with the hopes of surveying as many Berserkers as possible on the subject.
A few of the comments above seem to take issue with my comments about the drinkability of red Burgundies that have seen a lot of whole cluster inclusion when they are young. I, of course, like mature Burgundies, and am very familiar with the usual drinking windows for all the major vineyards. A lot of grand crus from top producers that use substantial stem inclusion do have enough fruit concentration to emerge, after 10 to 20 years, as fabulous wines, even if the stem inclusion makes them less enjoyable before that than they would be otherwise. Wines from lesser vineyards, however, often lack the fruit that will persist through the years it takes for the stem tannins to soften, so one is left at the end with a very green tasting wine, even upon maturity. That’s what I was saying above about the Bouchard '09s I tasted, although I can see how it is easy to misconstrue that point.
Thanks for the response. I don’t really agre with your comment that the stem included wines are far less enjoyable at maturity than they would be otherwise. For me, the far bigger problem is misuse of oak. I’m much more likely to drink a 15 year old burgundy and say “crap, why did they ruin these beautiful grapes with all this oak” than to have a problem with stems and green tannins.
Rusty wrote this very illuminating piece on the topic last year. While there are no clear-cut answers (ultimately a winemaking decision and matter of taste), it makes for a good read and presents a balanced viewpoint.
I see some of my favorite producers on both lists though I’ll admit that some of them on the second are very marked by the stems when young. Add me to the group that’s bemused by drinking almost any Burgundy at 5-10 years of age as that is right around when I’d expect most of them to be shut down.
I’m very happy there are people making great wine both with and without.
The one that immediately springs to mind is ‘if it tastes too tannic it is too tannic’. Complete nonsense.
No disrespect meant to Jayer, of course, but he was a winemaker not a sage.
No offense to you, John. But what is this a rule now? There are plenty of great threads started by people who don’t have to check back in and babysit. I don’t understand why it so bothered Hank.
On the pigmentation issue, I can understand why a winemaker would worry. As one consumer, I could not care less and may actually drawn to lighter wines independent of their power.
I think its interesting but my experience in california is that it really depends. I had a zepaltas suacci '09 last night, 50% stem inclusion, didn’t taste green to me. At worst I think greenness can result, but at least here where ripeness is not typically an issue, i find it less common. Perhaps the conditions in burgundy produce different stems.
1- on the first. Not a baby sitting issue in this thread. Richard had made some controversial assertions, and had about 18 responses, all basically disagreeing. I was just a little impatient to hear his response to get a little bit more from his side of the discussion.
I had a discussion earlier this year with Sylvain Pitiot about his practice of whole stem inclusion in Clos de Tart. As Richard notes, he varies the proportion according to what he thinks the wine will stand best in any year, but he also said that for the past few years he has run blind tastings on groups of critics and fellow winemakers, comparing samples from whole-stem and no-stem barrels. He does this - he says successfully - to demonstrate that in most cases it’s very hard to pick them apart. Richard might enjoy that challenge, as Sylvain will I’m sure be happy to discuss this issue with him - and put his palate to the test!
Interesting, because I’ve had no problem picking them when I’ve done it there, and same for a friend in the British trade who visited with me a few years ago. Moreover, when we told Sylvain the bases on which we picked them out, he agreed. And, I should add, I think Clos de Tart is a terroir that is very favorable to whole cluster fermentation.
Mark,
Thanks for an incredibly reductive and erroneous version of my argument. If you need it boiled down to a sentence or three, let me give you a few:
In my experience of tasting thousands of Pinot Noirs, I’ve found that those with substantial stem inclusion (i.e., over 15%) often result in wines with predominant green flavors as well as higher levels of tannin, and less of the pure red/blue fruit and minerality I seek. Stems work great with some heavier red grapes–especially Syrah–but I don’t think they’re suited for lighter, more delicate red grapes. When there is great concentration of fruit (e.g., Leroy’s Burgundies, and many top grand crus), the higher levels of stem inclusion can often yield complex and interesting wines after many years of bottle aging, but with lesser terroirs and makers, my experience is that the wines stay green and lack charm even with several years of bottle age.
Here’s an even simpler version, if you need:
Stem inclusion, and experiments with stem inclusion, in Pinot Noir are on the increase. People who love Pinot Noir are advised to become aware of the impact of stems on the wine, and to find out whether the producers whose wines they buy are including a significant amount of whole cluster or not.
Nigel,
I appreciate hearing more about Clos de Tart (a wine I often buy) and Sylvain’s taste tests. I’d love to participate in that at some point. And I am delighted that Claude was able to report here on his experience with that challenge.
I can’t stand the “let’s add as much of X (oak, stems, whatever) as a wine can take!” attitude. Wine is about the grapes. Let the grapes shine through.
If people can’t tell the difference, why bother adding something?
Perhaps. But I’m a grape purist, esp in Burgundy. I want producer to let the wine express what those grapes in that vineyard in that year taste like. I don’t want to have to age the stem flavors out, etc.
Don’t get me wrong - I’m still about letting winemakers make their wine and then judging what the stuff tastes like, but I wish people would err on the minimalist side when it comes to adding things.
Richard, your response could have been shorter. It could have said: Mark, you must have failed logic in college. My analysis would be more appropriately (and logically) summed up as “I do not like mushrooms. Therefore all dishes containing mushrooms could, to my palate, be improved by withholding the mushrooms from the dish.”
Where do you draw the line? Do you press the pinot off the skins?
I don’t think this is a purity/minimalist issue. It’s a style issue. After all, destemming is a process. In a sense, it’s more natural to cut the bunches and toss everything into the fermentation vessel than it is to violently strip the grapes off the stems.
Richard, your response could have been shorter. It could have said: Mark, you must have failed logic in college. My analysis would be more appropriately (and logically) summed up as “I do not like mushrooms. Therefore all dishes containing mushrooms could, to my palate, be improved by withholding the mushrooms from the dish.”
Cute John, but I think the argument in my post, and in my prior post referred to in my post, is a little more nuanced than “I don’t like stems in anything, ever.”
I happen to adore mushrooms BTW. Maybe it’s because they’re actually edible, unlike stems.
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