J J Prum: the last great wine house priced reasonably.

[Juliec]

Thanks Brian and David for the tips. Much appreciated

[Howard_Cooper]

I would like to amend my original post and add the great Port houses to the list. Fonseca, Taylor, Graham etc. That is unless we are just dealing with table wines.

What is your definition of a “great wine house”?

As I asked much earlier, what is the difference between Prum and von Schubert as far as being a great wine house?

What about Ridge Geyserville, Stony Hill Chardonnays, Mt Eden, Trimbach Cuvee Frederic Emile, Lopez de Heredia, Huet, Foreau, Christian Moreau, etc., etc., etc., etc.?

It isn’t like Prum has been making great wines for centuries. The estate was founded in 1911. Stony Hill dates back to the 1940s. Maximin Grunhaus goes back forever and the von Schuberts have owned it longer than there has been a JJ Prum estate. History – Weingut Maximin Grünhaus

[Robert_Dentice]

I would like to amend my original post and add the great Port houses to the list. Fonseca, Taylor, Graham etc. That is unless we are just dealing with table wines.

What is your definition of a “great wine house”?

As I asked much earlier, what is the difference between Prum and von Schubert as far as being a great wine house?

What about Ridge Geyserville, Stony Hill Chardonnays, Mt Eden, Trimbach Cuvee Frederic Emile, Lopez de Heredia, Huet, Foreau, Christian Moreau, etc., etc., etc., etc.?

It isn’t like Prum has been making great wines for centuries. The estate was founded in 1911. Stony Hill dates back to the 1940s. Maximin Grunhaus goes back forever and the von Schuberts have owned it longer than there has been a JJ Prum estate. History – Weingut Maximin Grünhaus

This is easy, despite great Terrior Von Schubert has had a number of periods of inconsistency. I would argue that even now they are underperforming their peers.

[DougS]

So you all have me intrigued on JJ Prum. Never tried it, but interested to seek it out. Where would you recommend I start? Looks like I can get the below at my local Binnys. Anything worth taking a swing at, or simply “buy all 5 and give it a go”

2018 Graacher Himmelreich Spatlese
2018 Wehlener Sonnenuhr Kabinett
2018 Wehlener Sonnenuhr Spatlese
2018 Graacher Himmelreich Auslese
2018 Graacher Himmelreich Kabinett

Appreciate the input

Prum wines really need some age. I am sure that in the Chicago area you can find something older than a 2018. Wehlener Sonnenuhr is their best appellation and what they are best known for, but Prum also makes excellent wines from Graacher Himmelreich, Zeltinger Sonnenuhr and Berncasteler Badstube.

Of the ones you named, try the Auslese. But, do know that it will be on the sweeter side.

I used to think they required aging, but I really don’t think that’s the case anymore with the past few vintages. I just had a 2017 W-S Kabinett Last night that was singing. That’s totally fitting with my experience of these lines lately. Better with age? Yes. But again, I don’t think they need it anymore. I think a 2018 or 2017 (especially ‘17) is a fine place to start.

[Russell_Faulkner]

I would like to amend my original post and add the great Port houses to the list. Fonseca, Taylor, Graham etc. That is unless we are just dealing with table wines.

What is your definition of a “great wine house”?

As I asked much earlier, what is the difference between Prum and von Schubert as far as being a great wine house?

What about Ridge Geyserville, Stony Hill Chardonnays, Mt Eden, Trimbach Cuvee Frederic Emile, Lopez de Heredia, Huet, Foreau, Christian Moreau, etc., etc., etc., etc.?

It isn’t like Prum has been making great wines for centuries. The estate was founded in 1911. Stony Hill dates back to the 1940s. Maximin Grunhaus goes back forever and the von Schuberts have owned it longer than there has been a JJ Prum estate. History – Weingut Maximin Grünhaus

This is easy, despite great Terrior Von Schubert has had a number of periods of inconsistency. I would argue that even now they are underperforming their peers.

Well, since it takes two to argue… I think current Grunhaus wines are absolutely top level, and apart from a tiny ‘blip’ 20 years ago that lasted 2-3 years (and actually there are really good wines from that period) the wines are very consistent (admittedly my experience doesn’t go back before 1978.)

[David_Bu3ker]

I would argue that the “blip” 20 years ago wasn’t even a blip. The 2001 Grunahus wines are amazing right now (QbA through Spatlese…have’t gotten into the Auslesen yet).

[Russell_Faulkner]

I’d agree generally. But they aren’t a shade on the 97s!

[Jay_Miller]

I’d agree generally. But they aren’t a shade on the 97s!

What is?

[David_Bu3ker]

I’d agree generally. But they aren’t a shade on the 97s!

Well yeah…then there’s the overlooked '93s.

That being said, the 2001 QbA is jaw dropping, and has been for 5 or 6 years.

[Robert_Dentice]

What is your definition of a “great wine house”?

As I asked much earlier, what is the difference between Prum and von Schubert as far as being a great wine house?

What about Ridge Geyserville, Stony Hill Chardonnays, Mt Eden, Trimbach Cuvee Frederic Emile, Lopez de Heredia, Huet, Foreau, Christian Moreau, etc., etc., etc., etc.?

It isn’t like Prum has been making great wines for centuries. The estate was founded in 1911. Stony Hill dates back to the 1940s. Maximin Grunhaus goes back forever and the von Schuberts have owned it longer than there has been a JJ Prum estate. History – Weingut Maximin Grünhaus

This is easy, despite great Terrior Von Schubert has had a number of periods of inconsistency. I would argue that even now they are underperforming their peers.

Well, since it takes two to argue… I think current Grunhaus wines are absolutely top level, and apart from a tiny ‘blip’ 20 years ago that lasted 2-3 years (and actually there are really good wines from that period) the wines are very consistent (admittedly my experience doesn’t go back before 1978.)

I assume you have not tried the 19 auction wines?

[Russell_Faulkner]

No. I have the regular ones in the cellar though in the queue.

[dvansteenderen]

[/quote]
I assume you have not tried the 19 auction wines?
[/quote]

These are the scores for the 2019 auction wines by Mosel Fine Wines (don’t know if I am allowed to post this since they are the intellectual owner)?
So, anyway, read their work on http://www.moselfinewines.com/

2019er Maximin Grünhaus Maximin Grünhäuser Abtsberg Riesling Auslese Nr. 34 10 20 Auction 95/100
The 2019er Maximin Grünhäuser Abtsberg Riesling Auslese Nr. 34 was made from partially botrytized fruit and was fermented down to noble-sweet levels of residual sugar. It offers a gorgeously ripe and engaging nose made of pineapple, apricot, mango, coconut, grapefruit, almond cream, mint, and herbs. The wine is smooth and sweet on the honeyed and slightly big palate, but the underlying finesse comes through in the racy and comparatively light finish. Cream, exotic fruits, almond, apricot, and honeyed elements add to the gorgeousness of this superb dessert wine in the aftertaste. 2034-2059

2019er Maximin Grünhaus Maximin Grünhäuser Herrenberg Riesling Trocken GG 03 20 94/100
The 2019er Maximin Grünhäuser Herrenberg Riesling GG, as it is referred to on the consumer label, will be sold in magnums at the Auction (the same wine is sold via regular channels in 75cl bottle). It was fermented spontaneously and aged in traditional Fuder cask. It offers a stunning nose made of elderflower, smoke, minty herbs, blue berried fruits, and wet stone. The wine is beautifully juicy and playful on the floral and zesty palate and leaves a gorgeously backward yet impeccably balanced feel of minerals, fruits, and spices in the hugely long, fully dry-tasting, and nicely tart finish. This dry Riesling is a huge success! 2026-2034

I am looking forward to tasting them this Friday in Trier at the Auction!

[Howard_Cooper]

I would like to amend my original post and add the great Port houses to the list. Fonseca, Taylor, Graham etc. That is unless we are just dealing with table wines.

What is your definition of a “great wine house”?

As I asked much earlier, what is the difference between Prum and von Schubert as far as being a great wine house?

What about Ridge Geyserville, Stony Hill Chardonnays, Mt Eden, Trimbach Cuvee Frederic Emile, Lopez de Heredia, Huet, Foreau, Christian Moreau, etc., etc., etc., etc.?

It isn’t like Prum has been making great wines for centuries. The estate was founded in 1911. Stony Hill dates back to the 1940s. Maximin Grunhaus goes back forever and the von Schuberts have owned it longer than there has been a JJ Prum estate. History – Weingut Maximin Grünhaus

This is easy, despite great Terrior Von Schubert has had a number of periods of inconsistency. I would argue that even now they are underperforming their peers.

So, by your definition Lafite, Margaux and Ausone are not great wine houses. [There is a debate (above) about the consistency of Grunhaus. I doubt there would be too many people trying to argue that these properties have not had down periods - anyone who disagrees should try, say, the 1970s from any of these.]

[Brian_S_t_o_t_t_e_r]

Grunhaus may have had a “blip” 20 years ago, but I wouldn’t knock it as not being a great wine house just for that. There’s a difference between what’s happening there and say, its neighbor Karthauserhof.

[Mark_Golodetz]

What is your definition of a “great wine house”?

As I asked much earlier, what is the difference between Prum and von Schubert as far as being a great wine house?

What about Ridge Geyserville, Stony Hill Chardonnays, Mt Eden, Trimbach Cuvee Frederic Emile, Lopez de Heredia, Huet, Foreau, Christian Moreau, etc., etc., etc., etc.?

It isn’t like Prum has been making great wines for centuries. The estate was founded in 1911. Stony Hill dates back to the 1940s. Maximin Grunhaus goes back forever and the von Schuberts have owned it longer than there has been a JJ Prum estate. History – Weingut Maximin Grünhaus

This is easy, despite great Terrior Von Schubert has had a number of periods of inconsistency. I would argue that even now they are underperforming their peers.

So, by your definition Lafite, Margaux and Ausone are not great wine houses. [There is a debate (above) about the consistency of Grunhaus. I doubt there would be too many people trying to argue that these properties have not had down periods - anyone who disagrees should try, say, the 1970s from any of these.]

I concur Margaux, but Ausone 1976 and 1979 are brilliant. Old Lafite are incredibly inconsistent as they bottled each barrel at a time. The better barrels went into large format; An imperial of the 1975 was magnificent, but I have had horrific fifths. Your point is valid; wineries have ups and downs.

I would be hard pressed to consider Grunhaus the equal of Prum, even based on their holdings.

[Eric_Ifune]

Recently opened a 1990 Abtsberg Auslese and 1997 Abtsberg Spatlese. Both wonderful and up there with JJ Prum.
If we’re including fortified wines, then Valdespino and Tradicion for Sherry. JM Fonseca for Setubal.

[Howard_Cooper]

This is easy, despite great Terrior Von Schubert has had a number of periods of inconsistency. I would argue that even now they are underperforming their peers.

So, by your definition Lafite, Margaux and Ausone are not great wine houses. [There is a debate (above) about the consistency of Grunhaus. I doubt there would be too many people trying to argue that these properties have not had down periods - anyone who disagrees should try, say, the 1970s from any of these.]

I concur Margaux, but Ausone 1976 and 1979 are brilliant. Old Lafite are incredibly inconsistent as they bottled each barrel at a time. The better barrels went into large format; An imperial of the 1975 was magnificent, but I have had horrific fifths. Your point is valid; wineries have ups and downs.

I would be hard pressed to consider Grunhaus the equal of Prum, even based on their holdings.

I agree on the 1979 Ausone. But, I was specifically talking about 1970, which was a fabulous vintage where none of these properties made very good wines. Certainly, each of these had a period around this time of severe underperformance, although the specific dates differ.

Try 1983s, 1989s and 1990s, for example from Grunhaus, esp. the 1989 Abtsberg #96 Auslese and tell me this vineyard is not as good as WS.

[Jayson_Cohen]

So, by your definition Lafite, Margaux and Ausone are not great wine houses. [There is a debate (above) about the consistency of Grunhaus. I doubt there would be too many people trying to argue that these properties have not had down periods - anyone who disagrees should try, say, the 1970s from any of these.]

I concur Margaux, but Ausone 1976 and 1979 are brilliant. Old Lafite are incredibly inconsistent as they bottled each barrel at a time. The better barrels went into large format; An imperial of the 1975 was magnificent, but I have had horrific fifths. Your point is valid; wineries have ups and downs.

I would be hard pressed to consider Grunhaus the equal of Prum, even based on their holdings.

I agree on the 1979 Ausone. But, I was specifically talking about 1970, which was a fabulous vintage where none of these properties made very good wines. Certainly, each of these had a period around this time of severe underperformance, although the specific dates differ.

Try 1983s, 1989s and 1990s, for example from Grunhaus, esp. the 1989 Abtsberg #96 Auslese and tell me this vineyard is not as good as WS.

i would go a bit further even. I love Prum WS at all levels, but side by side, if forced to choose, a good Abtsberg is just better for my palate. The last side by side I had was at Robert’s Riesling Study No. 1 in January, and among brilliant bottles of Prum and von Schubert, Jay Miller’s bottle of 1997 Abtsberg Spatlese was just incredible. It was my favorite Riesling that night among dozens of great ones. And I missed the single cask Auslesen that were supposedly on fire that night.

I am not sure about the context for the comments above about a blip at von Schubert now/for 2019. (Maybe reports are that the auction wines didn’t show well in this week’s previews?) The generational transition started in earnest in the mid-2010s from what I understand. The ‘15s are brilliant. The ‘16s were like most ‘16s young (except Falkenstein) - a little fat but probably just hiding their structure. (I liked very few ‘16s Pradikat wines on release.) I need to try the von Schubert 2017s, which I somehow missed. And I skipped all ‘18s except Falkenstein. I preordered the von Schubert ‘19s and am looking forward to Russell’s comments if he already has his. Delivery for me isn’t for a couple months.

[DanielP]

I concur Margaux, but Ausone 1976 and 1979 are brilliant. Old Lafite are incredibly inconsistent as they bottled each barrel at a time. The better barrels went into large format; An imperial of the 1975 was magnificent, but I have had horrific fifths. Your point is valid; wineries have ups and downs.

I would be hard pressed to consider Grunhaus the equal of Prum, even based on their holdings.

I agree on the 1979 Ausone. But, I was specifically talking about 1970, which was a fabulous vintage where none of these properties made very good wines. Certainly, each of these had a period around this time of severe underperformance, although the specific dates differ.

Try 1983s, 1989s and 1990s, for example from Grunhaus, esp. the 1989 Abtsberg #96 Auslese and tell me this vineyard is not as good as WS.

i would go a bit further even. I love Prum WS at all levels, but side by side, if forced to choose, a good Abtsberg is just better for my palate. The last side by side I had was at Robert’s Riesling Study No. 1 in January, and among brilliant bottles of Prum and von Schubert, Jay Miller’s bottle of 1997 Abtsberg Spatlese was just incredible. It was my favorite Riesling that night among dozens of great ones. And I missed the single cask Auslesen that were supposedly on fire that night.

I am not sure about the context for the comments above about a blip at von Schubert now/for 2019. (Maybe reports are that the auction wines didn’t show well in this week’s previews?) The generational transition started in earnest in the mid-2010s from what I understand. The ‘15s are brilliant. The ‘16s were like most ‘16s young (except Falkenstein) - a little fat but probably just hiding their structure. (I liked very few ‘16s Pradikat wines on release.) I need to try the von Schubert 2017s, which I somehow missed. And I skipped all ‘18s except Falkenstein. I preordered the von Schubert ‘19s and am looking forward to Russell’s comments if he already has his. Delivery for me isn’t for a couple months.

Just had the '15 and '16 abtsberg spatlesen last month, and I’d say that the '16s actually showed more acid and zing than the '15 which definitely showed sweeter and riper.

[Jayson_Cohen]

I agree on the 1979 Ausone. But, I was specifically talking about 1970, which was a fabulous vintage where none of these properties made very good wines. Certainly, each of these had a period around this time of severe underperformance, although the specific dates differ.

Try 1983s, 1989s and 1990s, for example from Grunhaus, esp. the 1989 Abtsberg #96 Auslese and tell me this vineyard is not as good as WS.

i would go a bit further even. I love Prum WS at all levels, but side by side, if forced to choose, a good Abtsberg is just better for my palate. The last side by side I had was at Robert’s Riesling Study No. 1 in January, and among brilliant bottles of Prum and von Schubert, Jay Miller’s bottle of 1997 Abtsberg Spatlese was just incredible. It was my favorite Riesling that night among dozens of great ones. And I missed the single cask Auslesen that were supposedly on fire that night.

I am not sure about the context for the comments above about a blip at von Schubert now/for 2019. (Maybe reports are that the auction wines didn’t show well in this week’s previews?) The generational transition started in earnest in the mid-2010s from what I understand. The ‘15s are brilliant. The ‘16s were like most ‘16s young (except Falkenstein) - a little fat but probably just hiding their structure. (I liked very few ‘16s Pradikat wines on release.) I need to try the von Schubert 2017s, which I somehow missed. And I skipped all ‘18s except Falkenstein. I preordered the von Schubert ‘19s and am looking forward to Russell’s comments if he already has his. Delivery for me isn’t for a couple months.

Just had the '15 and '16 abtsberg spatlesen last month, and I’d say that the '16s actually showed more acid and zing than the '15 which definitely showed sweeter and riper.

Baby fat. Good to know! I had heard similar reports about the ‘16 Schaefer Spatlesen firming up.