Is now the time to be stocking your cellar as deeply as you can?

Vince_T · February 15, 2024, 7:39pm

Rayas is also “affordable” now, around $1k on secondary market for recent vintages. For a hot second (the first half of '22), they were hammering >$2k / bottle

JLuch · February 15, 2024, 7:40pm

Best I’m seeing for DV for me in NJ is either Saratoga wine at 70$ long term pre arrival or Alferts favorite b21 at 75$. Probably would be stuck with b21 since I at least know it will ship during favorable weather. Will also need to fill an entire case.

JLuch · February 15, 2024, 7:52pm

Internet wines is reliable from feedback I’ve received from other Berserkers. I’ve also sent wine to my in laws to New Hampshire and those orders were fine and as expected.

Dav3_Dyr0ff · February 15, 2024, 7:58pm

They also operate a local store here with 2-3 locations. I’ve never ordered from them for shipment, but have never had a problem ordering from them for local pickup, including the aforementioned Ferriere at $30. Since it was pick-up, my six-pack even came in a sealed OWC.

Ryan_A · February 16, 2024, 1:33am

Thank you for the examples. Will be curious to see where this all shakes out with the plentiful ‘22s.

Robert.A.Jr · February 16, 2024, 5:23pm

In with ya, brotha! Dove back for more!

MikeHill · February 16, 2024, 5:44pm

I have successfully ordered and received shipment from Internet Wine & Spirits

Robert.A.Jr · February 16, 2024, 6:02pm

Most of my recent 2019 and 2016 buys have been from that retailer, no issues at all, and as inexpensive as you will find. Not sure how they do this! The Ferrriere and Haut Bages Liberal both at $30!!!

I also bought that Tronquoy Lalande from K&L. The 6-packs were dirt cheap! I bought a lot of 2016.

Jeff_Leve · February 16, 2024, 7:32pm

Nobody has tomorrow’s newspaper today. There is not one person who knows what is going to happen. Just like equities, you can never time the market. Every investor who bought ETFS or securities with major companies has made money over time.

That being said, the best time to buy wine is when you have extra, disposable income. You might not have that money tomorrow. Next, only buy wines priced at what you are comfortable drinking them at. Your wines might become more expensive in the future. Or they could dip in price. But, so what? You paid a price you could afford, so why worry?

That is advice for drinkers. For investors, it is different. I have no problem with speculators. If that is where you want to put your money, fine.

If I was an investor, I would be much more careful. Perhaps OWC of wines Parker rated 100 Pts. Petrus, Le Pin, Lafleur are solid. A few others in Burgundy, Rhone, Italy, as well. Over time, the best of everything has a good chance of appreciating. But, speculating has risks. Pleasure does not.

Nathan_V · February 16, 2024, 9:10pm

Have you checked out any of the bottles? No signs of poor storage or anything (not just seepage, but any stain past the end of the cork)? I’m usually in the “if it’s too good to be true it probably isn’t” mold and a great deal on a cooked or otherwise compromised wine isn’t a deal. But if the wines are in good shape, those are great deals!

Michae1_P0wers · February 16, 2024, 10:19pm

As Dave mentioned upthread, this is a retailer based in STL with four stores here and one on the IL side. They have large stores. I assume they just bought a ton of recent vintage BDX, esp. 2019. I have bought 2019 BDX from them recently. Bottles are pristine and sound. They were pouring others in-store last weekend and everything was sound. Many other area Berserkers have been loading up with them and report nothing but success.

Greg_K · February 16, 2024, 10:22pm

Mark_Golodetz:

Greg_K:

Mark_Golodetz:

I have long felt that the Burgundy market has been skewed by speculation. Don’t get me wrong, there have always been speculators, but lately it seems to have taken up a much greater percentage than before. Most of my information is anecdotal, but the merchants in the UK speak of investors who have seen huge increases over the last few years, entering the market in great numbers, and are now looking to break even.

In the end though, somebody has to decide they are going to open the bottle, and only the very wealthy will open a $3k bottle of Rousseau or $20k DRC regularly.

I do not think it’s particularly driven by speculation Mark. There are a lot of these wines being opened in various cities around the world, there are not that many of them made and they’re not very easy to purchase in bulk at below market prices for investment.
Unless by “investors” people mean consumers who take allocations hoping to resell some of the wines in the future, which is not different than Bordeaux consumers since time immemorial.

I don’t think there is any question that there is speculation, and it is skewing the market. Some of it private, from investors (not consumers by definition) buying at low Wine Searcher, so with no insider connections, but also there are a number of wine funds which have have sprung up lately, and which may or may not have insider connections depending who is running them.

In one case I know of, there was a purchase of 50 cases of Roumier, DRC, Leroy etc, and the wines were immediately put on consignment waiting for the right price to hit. I also know that some of the wine purchased in Europe has never delivered and probably and will re-enter the market, if it has not already done so.

Yes Bordeaux buyers have been doing this from time immemorial, but Burgundy has much less wine, so small changes in the number or type of buyers, will have far more impact.

I think the idea of speculators “skewing the market” creates a false dichotomy which suggests that there is a true market. The wine is priced at what it will sell and the wines are being drunk. There are people in New York (I am very much not among them) who go through quite a bit of DRC every year, let alone plenty of other things that have appreciated in value.

Robert.A.Jr · February 16, 2024, 10:24pm

Everything I have received has been clean as a whistle

John_Morris · February 16, 2024, 10:51pm

Just bought '19 Cantermerle today for $29.

Are '19s not selling?

Mark_Golodetz · February 16, 2024, 10:55pm

Greg_K:

Mark_Golodetz:

Greg_K:

Mark_Golodetz:

I have long felt that the Burgundy market has been skewed by speculation. Don’t get me wrong, there have always been speculators, but lately it seems to have taken up a much greater percentage than before. Most of my information is anecdotal, but the merchants in the UK speak of investors who have seen huge increases over the last few years, entering the market in great numbers, and are now looking to break even.

In the end though, somebody has to decide they are going to open the bottle, and only the very wealthy will open a $3k bottle of Rousseau or $20k DRC regularly.

I do not think it’s particularly driven by speculation Mark. There are a lot of these wines being opened in various cities around the world, there are not that many of them made and they’re not very easy to purchase in bulk at below market prices for investment.
Unless by “investors” people mean consumers who take allocations hoping to resell some of the wines in the future, which is not different than Bordeaux consumers since time immemorial.

I don’t think there is any question that there is speculation, and it is skewing the market. Some of it private, from investors (not consumers by definition) buying at low Wine Searcher, so with no insider connections, but also there are a number of wine funds which have have sprung up lately, and which may or may not have insider connections depending who is running them.

In one case I know of, there was a purchase of 50 cases of Roumier, DRC, Leroy etc, and the wines were immediately put on consignment waiting for the right price to hit. I also know that some of the wine purchased in Europe has never delivered and probably and will re-enter the market, if it has not already done so.

Yes Bordeaux buyers have been doing this from time immemorial, but Burgundy has much less wine, so small changes in the number or type of buyers, will have far more impact.

I think the idea of speculators “skewing the market” creates a false dichotomy which suggests that there is a true market. The wine is priced at what it will sell and the wines are being drunk. There are people in New York (I am very much not among them) who go through quite a bit of DRC every year, let alone plenty of other things that have appreciated in value.

There is of course a market, just not an efficient one where everybody would have almost equal access to buy and sell.

And although there are still drinkers, hopefully they are not drinking DRC etc with less than a couple of years of bottle age. From what I hear, those are the wines that seems to attract the investor.

MChang · February 16, 2024, 11:05pm

Mark_Golodetz:

Greg_K:

Mark_Golodetz:

Greg_K:

Mark_Golodetz:

I have long felt that the Burgundy market has been skewed by speculation. Don’t get me wrong, there have always been speculators, but lately it seems to have taken up a much greater percentage than before. Most of my information is anecdotal, but the merchants in the UK speak of investors who have seen huge increases over the last few years, entering the market in great numbers, and are now looking to break even.

In the end though, somebody has to decide they are going to open the bottle, and only the very wealthy will open a $3k bottle of Rousseau or $20k DRC regularly.

I do not think it’s particularly driven by speculation Mark. There are a lot of these wines being opened in various cities around the world, there are not that many of them made and they’re not very easy to purchase in bulk at below market prices for investment.
Unless by “investors” people mean consumers who take allocations hoping to resell some of the wines in the future, which is not different than Bordeaux consumers since time immemorial.

I don’t think there is any question that there is speculation, and it is skewing the market. Some of it private, from investors (not consumers by definition) buying at low Wine Searcher, so with no insider connections, but also there are a number of wine funds which have have sprung up lately, and which may or may not have insider connections depending who is running them.

In one case I know of, there was a purchase of 50 cases of Roumier, DRC, Leroy etc, and the wines were immediately put on consignment waiting for the right price to hit. I also know that some of the wine purchased in Europe has never delivered and probably and will re-enter the market, if it has not already done so.

Yes Bordeaux buyers have been doing this from time immemorial, but Burgundy has much less wine, so small changes in the number or type of buyers, will have far more impact.

I think the idea of speculators “skewing the market” creates a false dichotomy which suggests that there is a true market. The wine is priced at what it will sell and the wines are being drunk. There are people in New York (I am very much not among them) who go through quite a bit of DRC every year, let alone plenty of other things that have appreciated in value.

There is of course a market, just not an efficient one where everybody would have almost equal access to buy and sell.

And although there are still drinkers, hopefully they are not drinking DRC etc with less than a couple of years of bottle age. From what I hear, those are the wines that seems to attract the investor.

I think some of the 19s are drinking very well, as are a lot of recent vintage stuff like corton and petit monts. 19 la tache was good in a young way. Obviously GE, RC, and riche would benefit from a lot of time in cellar.

Greg_K · February 16, 2024, 11:08pm

Mark_Golodetz:

Greg_K:

Mark_Golodetz:

Greg_K:

Mark_Golodetz:

I have long felt that the Burgundy market has been skewed by speculation. Don’t get me wrong, there have always been speculators, but lately it seems to have taken up a much greater percentage than before. Most of my information is anecdotal, but the merchants in the UK speak of investors who have seen huge increases over the last few years, entering the market in great numbers, and are now looking to break even.

In the end though, somebody has to decide they are going to open the bottle, and only the very wealthy will open a $3k bottle of Rousseau or $20k DRC regularly.

I do not think it’s particularly driven by speculation Mark. There are a lot of these wines being opened in various cities around the world, there are not that many of them made and they’re not very easy to purchase in bulk at below market prices for investment.
Unless by “investors” people mean consumers who take allocations hoping to resell some of the wines in the future, which is not different than Bordeaux consumers since time immemorial.

I don’t think there is any question that there is speculation, and it is skewing the market. Some of it private, from investors (not consumers by definition) buying at low Wine Searcher, so with no insider connections, but also there are a number of wine funds which have have sprung up lately, and which may or may not have insider connections depending who is running them.

In one case I know of, there was a purchase of 50 cases of Roumier, DRC, Leroy etc, and the wines were immediately put on consignment waiting for the right price to hit. I also know that some of the wine purchased in Europe has never delivered and probably and will re-enter the market, if it has not already done so.

Yes Bordeaux buyers have been doing this from time immemorial, but Burgundy has much less wine, so small changes in the number or type of buyers, will have far more impact.

I think the idea of speculators “skewing the market” creates a false dichotomy which suggests that there is a true market. The wine is priced at what it will sell and the wines are being drunk. There are people in New York (I am very much not among them) who go through quite a bit of DRC every year, let alone plenty of other things that have appreciated in value.

There is of course a market, just not an efficient one where everybody would have almost equal access to buy and sell.

And although there are still drinkers, hopefully they are not drinking DRC etc with less than a couple of years of bottle age. From what I hear, those are the wines that seems to attract the investor.

No market is fully efficient; given that bottles of fine wine are not really fungible, it can’t be. Nor would that provide a “real price”; such a thing isn’t possible in illiquid and shallow markets.

Lots of young DRC drunk.

Robert.A.Jr · February 16, 2024, 11:31pm

I’m guessing that the markets are just flooded with so many really good vintages.

Mark_Golodetz · February 17, 2024, 12:19am

Absolute efficiency of course doesn’t exist, but if you compare Bordeaux to Burgundy, Burgundy appears to be far less efficient.

Greg_K · February 17, 2024, 12:36am

Sure, but if a lot of Bordeaux estates had productions similar to Le Pin (and le Pin made 7 different cuvées) it would also be a lot less efficient. Bordeaux is a much more homogenized and liquid market than Burgundy, which is why it’s more efficient. That is also why it’s what investment funds primarily hold.