But I think in many jurisdictions it can be called “Ice Wine.” Randall Grahm at Bonny Doon in California used to make them this way.
I would guess that it the grapes are picked earlier, and perhaps in a warmer climate, the wine may have a different quality than ones made from grapes grown in cooler places and left on the vines until a hard freeze in December or January.
Does ice wine improve with age?
I’m sure there is, but that’s comparing what is likely a far inferior wine from Canada or Denmark to Donnhoff. I’m wondering if you hold all other variables as constant as possible, what difference it makes – if, rather than waiting and hoping for a freeze, fine German producers could pick very late and then artificially freeze.
That guy, whoever he is, makes no sense at all. We are talking about two wines, both made of grapes. Both are primarily made in the same region, germany, austria, etc. both are dessert wines. Ham to regrigerator is way off. I think a better comparison would be an orange to a clementine.
Joe - I use that analogy in another thread where there was a false dichotomy, but that’s OK. I get the point here too.
Anyway, ice wine is made because the grapes freeze and they’ve been on the vine past harvest, or maybe you just got an early winter and they aren’t super ripe. But generally they’re going to be late harvest anyway. The rules in some places mandate that they freeze and thaw a few times. You squeeze those grapes fast, the ice remains behind and you have a thick, concentrated juice.
Sauternes is different, at least it’s supposed to be. With that, the grapes are infected by a mold that dessicates them. The mold also adds its own flavors because it’s not simply eliminating water - it is living off the grapes and changing their make up.
You can definitely make ice wine by harvesting your grapes and freezing them yourself and some people do. Also, sometimes the grapes may have botrytis, so you get a blend of the two methods. There are not many places where you can make both naturally. In Germany you can. In Sauternes, they sometimes get early frosts. It is, or at least it was, legal to use frozen grapes to add concentration to your juice. Every producer will tell you they don’t do it.
Anyway, the flavor profiles therefore are utterly different. They’re sweeter than most still wine, but one isn’t necessarily a a lesser wine than the other.
Possible, but not in Austria or Germany.
Now you’re asking a contentious question which has consumed much internet bandwidth over the years 
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From my admittedly limited personal experience I do not see as compelling a reason to age them as I would other high end German wines. Their beauty and intensity are particularly vibrant when young. I had a wonderful 1996 Donnhoff Eiswein on Saturday. Was it better than it was 20 years ago? I don’t really know. I’ve had young Donnhoff Eiswein which I preferred but I didn’t have the 1996 on release.
re something in the $50-$75 range you might check out Selbach Oster. It’s certainly not as good as Donnhoff but it’s a good representation of the eiswein style.
It’s a mistake to make a general statement that Canadian ice wines are inferior to German ice wines. All of the top Canadian ice wines are made with grapes frozen in nature while still on the vine, exactly the same as top German ice wines. Having had both top Canadian wines and top German wines, the difference isn’t too significant. YMMV.
German/Austrian eiswein production is a gamble.
I’ve just read a German article on Eiswein, and these facts surprised Me a bit.
Only 10% of the grapes, goes in production (on average). Much is lost by falling to the ground. Another part, due to noble rot, and other rots. -which is meticulously removed.
Not made in all years. If temp. never reaches the low grades, no eiswein from the grapes.
Grapes not allowed to freeze, thaw, and refreeze again.
Harvest at night, so the rising sun does not heat up the frozen grapes, that goes directly to the press.
That’s maybe why the good stuff costs extra.
-Søren.
The difference is massive IMHO, though as I said I’ve only tried a dozen or so from canada (Inniskillen, Pelham, Stony Ridge are some that spring to mind)
None have the subtlety, purity and cristaline beauty of the best from the Mosel that I enjoy.
I think saying they are made in the same way whilst accurate isn’t that relevant.
I couldn’t answer the question in regards to Germans, but would assume yes.
Some well made Cdn examples certainly can, especially from certain grape varieties. I’ve had Inniskillin versions from Karl Kaiser’s cellar that he made in the 80’s that were wonderful and evolved. His belief (I was a guest at his home 12 or 13 years ago) was that Icewine developed somewhat differently than many other sweet wines. He felt they advanced for 10-15 years and then stayed somewhat unchanged after that for quite some time. He & most of the early makers in Canada were using only Vidal. Riesling with it’s typically higher acidity should hold up a bit better.
I have icewine in my cellar that is 20 years old (& have a few birthyear wines for my kids) and I’m not concerned about them falling off a cliff.
As to comparisons of German vs. Canadian Eiswein/ Icewine re quality let’s face it, while there is some fine & delicious Cdn Riesling made, I don’t think many objective tasters would compare it with the finest (or even mid-range) Pradikat wines from Germany at any ripeness. It would only make sense that Eiswein made from those grapes would follow with similar quality. There is a veritable sea of icewine made within 30 km’s of me, whereas Germany makes a dropper full in comparison. Less & less it seems.
Would like to try a Donnhoff or Egon Muller, but have never seen one here.
Regarding Canada vs Germany …
Isn’t most Canadian eiswein Vidal and most German eiswein Riesling?
Not so much any more Mark. Ontario vintners have learned how to keep varieties other than Vidal on the vine until it freezes. It’s still used but Riesling has caught up and many reds are being used (Chinese market loves red icewine apparently). I think a lot of Cab Franc icewine is made now.
At the high end the difference is huge IMO, with the German wines far superior.
This thread is like an early Xmassukah present for me! 
Ah, icewine. My first true love. Vinously speaking, of course. To tackle some initial questions brought up: Icewine is a cousin to Sauternes, a brethren sweet wine made in a different style. Both are high quality wines that require great care from growers and winemakers and are highly dependent upon Mother Nature for help. They differ greatly in flavor, texture, and complexity.
White Zinfadel, on the other hand, is the mutated inbred cousin of Zinfandel which has brought shame to the entire family. Making things worse is that I understand most crappy commercial White Zinfandel is actually made from the runoff juice of “real” Zinfandel wine… though how “real” the Zinfandel wine of a maker who makes their White Zin in this fashion is also questionable as far as I’m concerned. White Zinfandel is an insult to those California growers and winemakers who truly strive to make quality Zinfandel wine.
So to answer the initial question, icewine is most definitely not the cheaper or lesser version of Sauternes. It is different but equal. Just like we Canadians and you Americans are. Okay, big group hug everyone. 
Okay, that’s enough of the feels. ![[wow.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/7/7d450e9830889c8943b674446a21b7254cad657e.gif "wow"){kind=small}
To address some other points that came up in this thread: Icewine aging is a total crapshoot. I’ve had some as young as 06 that were already maderized and shot and some as old as 1993 that were still perfectly viable. The one constant I do see, however, is that they will maderize and go darker much quicker than any other sweet wines I’ve had. For this reason, I also prefer them young when they’re primary and vibrant. A few have surprised me but when it comes to aging they really can’t hold up due to lack of botrytis and/or fortification. I would personally love for an icewine maker to fortify some icewine and lock it away in a barrel.
In regards to German icewine, I’ve only ever sampled one ever at a wine show and I must say while it was absolutely delicious, it was also one of the worst QPRs I’ve ever come across. As Brodie intimates, the stuff is highly expensive. While it was marginally better than most Riesling icewines from Canada I’ve had, a couple like the Inniskillin and Cave Spring Cellars Riesling icewines were just as good and far, far less expensive. I think the high price comes more from the rarity than what’s actually in the bottle.
There is a clear difference between freezer wine and icewine. While I don’t thumb my nose down on freezer wine and will drink it, I do recognize that icewine is superior and I can definitely taste the difference as well. I am no winemaker but from what I have tasted, freezer wine tastes like a more concentrated version of a dry wine as they have not hung long on the vine and therefore have not had as many complex changes forced upon them in comparison to icewine grapes that have hung for months after harvest and survived extreme weather changes.
Icewines will have certain traits and complexities that let you know that mother nature has had an effect. The most telling one of these is the ridiculously smooth texture and mouthfeel of a naturally made icewine despite the high sugar content.
Lastly, while Vidal icewine production used to trump all others in Canada, there has been a very rapid trend towards Riesling and some other varietals. Gewurztraminer and Cab Franc are the other two most popular made in Canada but you will also find Merlot, Chardonnay, Cab Sauv, Sauv Blanc, Pinot Blanc, Semillon, and Savagnin icewine made here.
I’ve never heard of mutant white zin grapes. All white zin that I know of it simply red zin juice that doesn’t get much or any skin contact.
No.
I think he was kidding about the mutation thing. Nothing like a little hyperbole to throw off the literalists,
Look through Terry Theise’s catalogs and see what you can find in Illinois. http://www.skurnik.com/terry-theise/ Most of the German wines he imports or that Rudy Wiest imports are pretty good.
the FLX is making killer ice and late harvest … FLX potential to rival Europe … just saying …
Shalom, Salute !!!
'Tis true, I didn’t mean that they were literally mutated grapes but more that white Zinfadel is the inbreeding, eye bulging, hunchbacked, mentally deranged offspring mutant of Zinfadel wine that escaped the sanitarium into the hills and became a cannibalistic hillbilly biker serial killer. It earns the distinction of actually being the only sweet wine I detest and everybody here knows I’m pretty much already down for any wine with residual sugar in it but White Zin is the sole exception. ![[barf.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/8/8943c0ebb2703c20afa757f7ca84a099bb9de70d.gif "barf")