Somebody needs a time out. ![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
The Donnhoff Spatlese (07 NH) we had with dinner last night was simultaneously powerful and sublime, super complex and delicious, surprisingly light but not as elegant as it could be. Maybe I’ll take to the dry ones down the road, but for now, almost my ideal Riesling. I regret the lack of elegant/racy Kabinett in the market but I don’t know if that’s because dry wine production crowded it out, or what.
I’m going to open a sweet kabinett from a second tier producer now.
Mat:
I appreciate you summarizing your view.
I think the umbrage you take with Thiese’s comments is overwrought, and really an opportunity to make some noise (which is fine, as that’s also what Terry is doing in his own way). However, crocodile tears aside, it seems to me what you’re really criticizing him for is that he doesn’t do more to promote dry wines in the US.
Rather than bemoaning his lack of promotion for dry wines in the US (which indirectly means that you have to work harder to promote the many dry wines Fass Selections brings in), I’d suggest that this is an opportunity for you and Lyle to make your names in this space.
Suggesting that Terry abandon a core premise that he’s held for years, which is that there is beauty in the entire range of German wines (and especially including those delicate wines with between 10 and 40gm of RS), seems disingenuous particularly when you indicate:
My suggestion: Tell us why Dry Wines are beautiful, not why there are too many wines with rs, or why Terry is wrong. Diversity of wine styles is a good thing, and arguments about the LACK of diversity in Parker’s palate led (in part) to Lyle getting tossed from the Parker forum (my point being that I think of Lyle as an advocate for diversity, not the opposite). Don’t let the challenge of building a successful business lead you and Lyle to argue that diversity of wine styles is a bad thing. Make the case instead for a more diverse US market (which, of course, means that more diversity in Germany is arguably also a good thing).
[quote=“Jim Brennan”]
Very well stated. Had been itching to respond but couldn’t think of a way that wasn’t snarky.
Look I didn’t start this thread - were this an isolated incident, I wouldn’t have commented. I think his comments are mildly offensive and silly, that’s it.
As I’ve noted twice in this thread, I don’t really care what Mr. Thiese chooses to promote. It’s his business and my guess is that he sells so much grower champagne that none of this matters from a TT business standpoint.
I didn’t suggest that he abandon it. In fact, I explicitly said that I AGREED with the premise earlier in the thread (and even added sparkling Riesling to the mix).
Post #20 Postby Matcohen » Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:08 pm
I didn’t and don’t disagree with the meat of their argument. The meat of their argument is that Riesling can be great across the range of the RS scale (I’d even add sparkling if you want to talk about that category). It’s somewhat sad that sales of non-dry German wines are collapsing in Germany as an interesting and wonderful category of wines will ultimately lose some diversity.
“* You’re part of an import business trying to build a market for dryer styled wines”
Lyle generally tries to sell excellent wines at good prices in most categories. He won’t sell wines in categories he really doesn’t like (e.g. Amarone).
Lyle likes pretty much every category of Riesling (other than high oak wines, if that is a category). He has certainly offered sweeter Rieslings including aged ones. If people buy more sweet Riesling, he’ll increase the number that he offers. If they don’t want dry Riesling, he’ll cut back on those offers.
Again, it’s my personal observation that, having nothing to do with me or Lyle, people drink more dry wines. Industry statistics support this. I personally believe that dry German Rieslings are world class and excellent values. Having said that, if people prefer Chablis, I’m not going to try and force Grosses Gewachs down anyone’s throat.
With warmer temperatures, many kabinett have become sweeter. Have you tried Weiser Kunstler? I’m not sure I would call it racy but I would go with elegant (Lyle doesn’t sell it at FS). Steinmetz feinberb is on the racy side as well (Lyle doesn’t sell it at FS).
He repeats himself when under stress…
I’m confused. The US market for German wines (such as it is) has tended towards sweeter wines for quite some time, and now the mix is changing towards a higher proportion of dry wines. Say what you will about the merits, a trend towards increasing the percentage of dry wines increases diversity. I’m not sure what leads you to the idea that Mat is arguing “against” diversity. Nor did I hear Mat suggest that Terry “abandon a core premise that he’s held for years, which is that there is beauty in the entire range of German wines”.
Don’t get me wrong - I’m mostly on David’s side of the argument on this and I think he is winning on points. Like him, I am tempted to find solace by drinking a Kabinett from a “second-tier” producer. But I think that you (and Terry) are doing a better job of making Mat’s argument than Mat is. I would love to hear a cogent argument in favor of German dry riesling. There definitely is one, and Mat could certainly do a better job of making it. But there will be a better chance of having that discussion if we can leave the straw men out of it.
The VDP has forbidden straw men in Grosses Gewachs. 
If the VDP only had a brain…
Well, they allow ones made of really dry straw but they keep either burning down or blowing away.
For perhaps the first time in my life I think I find myself occupying the middle ground in a contentious debate.
For years I was pretty much exclusively a kabinett/spatlese/auslese buyer. Now I’ve decided I own way too much of them because very few have aged the way I expected and I find very few tasting better with age than they did on release. We were always told they get drier with age but in recent years the opposite has been true. Producers pushed the sweetness dial way too far and some of them seem destined to stay flabby and soft forevermore.
At the same time I do not understand the fixation with absolute dryness among many “dry specialist” producers. They might prove profound with age but they are often painfully unattractive on release. I don’t think I have ever had a GG that I thought perfectly balanced and comfortable in its own skin, something that dry riesling achieves almost effortlessly in other places.
Thus I’ve found myself drawn to the almost-but-not-totally dry styles that producers like Peter Lauer and AJ Adam execute so well. Those are in the Goldilocks zone, not too sweet and not too dry. I find it unfortunate that there’s a bureaucracy out there trying to mandate the definitive expression of riesling as the uber-dry GG style in a manner that implicitly denigrates these marginally sweeter versions as something less than the ideal. In a sensible world the concept of Grand Cru should be used to designate the highest plane of profundity that a wine can achieve regardless whether that’s <9g or >9g sugar. So I am sympathetic to Terry Theise’s annoyance that a cult has arisen fixated with that <9g parameter, and it’s even more annoying that some of those producers are obsessed with pushing the envelope not just towards bone-dry wines but towards wines that actively beat you over the head with their dryness. I note that this masochistic tendency is not a feature of any of Austria’s great dry rieslings, which wear their dryness effortlessly.
However, I find it hard to swallow the spin that Terry is just out there championing the glorious diversity of riesling in all of its gloriously diverse manifestations. I don’t care how many dry wines he offers - it’s beyond obvious that his personal preference is the kabinett/spatlese/auslese framework and on the rare occasion that he does deploy his obvious poetic talents rhapsodizing over an offering that dings 0 or -1 on his SOS scale, there’s always something of a backhanded compliment in there, to the effect of, ‘If only all those trockens could be like this one!’ He’ll sell them but it almost seems as though he wishes he didn’t have to. That’s his right, of course, but it doesn’t ring true to me to suggest that he’s an equally full-throated champion of riesling styles across the sweetness spectrum. (I’ll add that I’m not sure I see the stark difference between Terry and Rudi Wiest on this front that others are mentioning. I have plenty of Rudi wines from Haag, Prum, Weins-Prum, Haart, Zilliken, etc… all kabinett/spatlese/auslese. I know they bring in some trocken stuff too, but the portfolio doesn’t seem to me to have an emphasis that’s all that different from Terry’s.)
Puzzling… The price for e.g 2011 Alzinger Steinertal (Crush: 65$) is 2X the price in Europe.
Here you can easily get a top 10 GG for 55$. I am not going to say that SF Felseneck or Schönleber Haleneberg are better wines than Alzinger Steinertal, but i find them more expressive, detailed and balanced.
I’m not doing a good job here making the argument for dry Riesling because that was not my intent.
The argument for dry Riesling is the same as the argument for any wine. Imho, dry Riesling represents excellent value for the money IF YOU WANT A DRY WINE.
If you want a sweet wine, dry Riesling stinks.
I guess I would have to taste with you to see what you mean. I’ve had many GGs (and lesser trockens) on release that I’ve enjoyed immensely as have other tasters in my group.
Rudi has imho made a greater marketing push for dry German Riesling with his dry wine tour (a non-insubstantial monetary investment). I don’t know how hard he pushes his salespeople to sell them but when you talk to him, you certainly hear the passion for dry German Riesling. One could never say that Rudi is selling them because he was pressured into doing it.
I think that he has a far larger number of top tier dry wine producers as well (Schaefer Frohlich, Rebholz, Furst, Wagner Stempel, Schloss Lieser, Zilliken). Maybe that was the luck of the draw, but I think he has made a greater effort.
Just some info from my receipts:
2011 Alzinger Steinertal: $52.99
2011 Donnhoff GG 6-pack: $300, so $50 per bottle.
Last time I was offered S-F Felseneck GG it was $79.99/bottle, at which point I stopped paying attention.