I doubt it will ever come around in the sense of it turning into something recognizably Foillard, but that doesn’t mean it’s a bad wine. It’s just not a Bojo, and will never be. Quoting myself from the TN: I guess this wine is some sort of testament to everything that was wrong in Beaujolais in 2015 - and how Foillard has managed to turn all that into something very unique. You just have to approach the wine like you’d approach an Amarone or a Ribera del Duero and you’re all set!
Yea no kidding, those 17s are excellent! All the Thivin cuvees.
Not sure what to say about your question, though there does seem to be a vintage thread every year for Beaujolais. You can pretty much figure out who likes the more classic (or even lean) years - like Otto, Jayson, Martin, et al, and who also likes the riper vintages. I recall having some debates with Sir William of all things on the 2018 Delys cuvée by Bouland being too ripe, with him loving it. See note above from Otto, that’s why I did not buy the Athanor.
Other than than, just buying them here and there and trying before you go deep. I have noticed that it is getting a but more difficult to do that, as Beaujolais appears to have gotten more popular. For example, I want to buy right now, and cannot find, the 2019 Roilette Cuvée Tardive. Bummer.
Probably worth buying a couple of bottles of anything reliable when they first hit the shelves to use as an indicator. I think these very ripe vintages will be easily identifiable. Personally I’d rather initially underrate a vintage and have to pick up what I can later than go deep and end up with a bunch of wine that I don’t really want to drink in my cellar.
Also, unfortunately this is an area where I’ve yet to see a critic clearly point out just how ripe these vintages are. I get that they don’t want to throw an entire region under the bus but adds to the difficulty of making early assessments.
Dude you nailed it. Even the critics that I really follow, like William and Gilman, have a tolerance for these riper vintages. That Athanor clocks in at 15.5% and critics seem to love it. I should have put your name in that post above as well, as I think we have a similar profile in Beaujolais. It’s like the canary in the coal mine, when one of you guys cries ripe, my ears perk up.
I know the US market is different, but if you can’t find the 2019s right now, I think you may miss the vintage altogether. I took delivery of my 2019 regular and Cuvee Tardive in Dec. 2020, and I have the 2020 vintage arriving now.
Stylistically, I know why you’re looking for the 2019s over the bigger 2020s.
The 20-30+ year old ones I’ve had at Bern’s and elsewhere have firmly convinced me to age these wines. Plenty has been written about what happens when they get tertiary, and I think quite a few people have experienced it. I have no idea what the wines I’ve had from the 80s tasted like on release, but I am confident that wines from producers like Coudert, Thivin, and Bouland will go the distance and will probably eventually be better than a 30-year-old Saint-Amour from a producer I’ve never heard of. I have no idea what will happen with a vintage like 2015 and am not confident at all in that, but as a category, with more classic vintages, I have no question.
I also agree. I really struggle with how ripe almost all of the wines are in vintages like 2015 and 2018, and it’s hard for me to get a sense of that until I start tasting them myself or reading notes here. Anything I read from critics is usually to get a sense of a vintage. I don’t have much luck with that when it comes to Beaujolais.
I am sure there are PLENTY of folks here who know and love what gamay becomes with time. Many wines hold very well and become more like their Burgundy cousins.
[Somebody go over to Disorder and ring the bell of the fire alarm.]
I don’t know what would have been a “BIG” fruit-ester’ed vintage in classical near-modern Beaujolais [or the Loire? or the Jura?], maybe 1989?, or 1990?, but if anybody has thirty years of experience in cellaring & opening & tasting the 1989s & 1990s, then what do they smell & taste like now?
Bouchard Fleurie 1981 11/14/21
Pristine label and fill for a 40 year old bottle.
Extremely pale garnet in color. High acidity coming off as faded light red fruit. Very pronounced Sous Bois notes.
Ordered on a whim between courses ($30USD) as we wanted to wait for our steaks to come out before drinking Jamet.
That was my experience with aging the old Puffeney Poulsard “M”; it dropped all its color [anthrocyanins?] and, if served chilled, became an exceptionally elegant Rose.
I mostly age cru Beaujolais 8-15 years, but have had quite a few older. Chamonard did a late release of some mid-90s Morgons a few years ago, I recently had one of the '98s , looks on CT like lots of people still have 97 and 98. A few years ago my friend Cathleen hosted Xavier Barbet (Billards) for a dinner with a long vertical of his wines. Final flight was 1969,1967, & 1976 . Totally delicious, drinking great.
I didn’t buy a lot of 2015, but have a few. One of the reasons I didnt was at time of release people were saying it was like 2009, too ripe and would never come around. Recent bottles of 2009 (Foillard, Brun, Billards, Descombes) have made me worry a lot less about my 2015s (and wish that I had more).
I have very little 2015, but I hope you’re right. I thought the 2009s in general had better balance, less jammy fruit, and more nuance than the 2015s on release. I remember people complaining about '09 and thinking I was lucky that I liked them. I didn’t taste any '15s that encouraged me to buy them. Maybe it was more due to my taste changing than the vintages being differentiated that way, but that was my impression.
I was going post something similar. For me 2009 was fresher. 2015 seemed more tannic and much richer, borderline roasted. Then there’s 2018, which I found jammy and flabby. So, like you, I don’t know if my tastes have changed or if these more recent vintages aren’t as fresh as 2009
I take a different approach for the riper vintages, though to be honest I think I am more tolerant than many of you when it comes to ripe Gamay: I buy all or mostly magnums in riper years. They are huge crowd pleasers, especially with friends who like wine but aren’t geeks, and can go over the top of a line-up of lighter wines when palates are a bit fatigued, but folks want to keep the party going. I’ve opened 3 mags of 2018 Foillard Cote de Py so far and my guests have absolutely loved them. As for me, I found enough freshness and structure to keep me happy. I liked 'em just fine for the time and place.
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