Timely post. A very generous Berserker and good friend opened three '91 Lopez Heredia Rioja last night. I was very impressed with the bright cherry and compared them to Burgundy more than once throughout the evening.
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Rioja rocks! Not to hijack your thread; do any Rioja freaks think I can crack one of my 750’s of 2004 Artadi Rioja Viña el Pisón anytime soon?
I agree and disagree. I had a 63 Tondonio on Friday night that I pegged as a Burgundy up against an E. Pira Barolo of the same era. The Lopez de Heredia was silky but ultimately not too complex. Having had many of old LdHs, and a fair number of old Riojas from La Rioja Alta and others, that’s usually my reaction. I respect them enormously, and they have wonderful balance, but for my palate, they aren’t in the same league with good old Burgundy, Bordeaux or Barolo.
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I agree, and have had several older Riojas that, save for some balsamic notes, partake of the nature of aged Burgundy. In a relatively recent blind tasting, some of my friends who are veterans of Bdx and Burgundy pegged a 1976 LdH Bosconia Gran Reserva as a Burg. Off the top of my head, others are the 1964 Faustino I Gran Reserva and the 1974 Contino Reserva.
Best,
N
It’s “Tondonia”, not “Tondonio”. I’ve not had their '63, but that is an unremarkable vintage for Rioja. Was this a Reserva or Gran Reserva (just curious)?
Best,
N
I’ve not had this bottling of Artadi, but, from the Artadis I have tried, I’d wait many more years unless you like big, bombastic wines.
Best,
N
I think we’ve got our next offline theme! Just had a 2001 Torre Oria Utiel-Requena Reserva tonight. (Okay, that’s not Rioja, but it was 100% tempranillo and a dead ringer).
My guess that the wine was a 1962 or a 1964 which were very good and excelent vintages in Rioja and widely available in the market until recently. As Noel stated above 1963 was an unremarkable vintage in Rioja.
SALUDos,
José
I may well be off on the vintage (as I was on the spelling!). I’m traveling and don’t have the notes with me and it was part of a long evening with a lot of wines.
It was like most sound bottles of old LdH I’ve had over the years from good vintages: elegant and pleasing but they haven’t sent me.
P.S. I adore old LdH whites much more than the reds.
Sorry, but I will be a voice of dissent, at least for my palate. I have never had a Tempanillo that wowed me, young, old, oaked, not oaked, large maker, or small. I often find them to be good wines, but not moving. I’m not saying that I’d never confuse them, but I feel that Tempranillo has a significantly different profile than Pinot.
Regarding confusing old wines, that happens with every variety. Eventually all red wines converge on sweet and brown, and it is very hard to differentiate. That’s why I like them younger. (mind you, I don’t consider 91 or 96 old).
Anyway, I’m not saying you are wrong, just that my palate is different. No shock there, I guess.
I don’t consider '91 or '96 old either, but that’s beside the point. Just out of curiosity, could you list some of the old Riojas you have opened? Thanks.
Best,
N
Brady - as to the first point, I kind of agree but I could never understand the obsession with Pinot.
As far as the second - it’s an interesting take. To some degree, some wines do converge. But I’ve done a fair number of blind tastings exploring that exact theme, specifically with Cab/Merlot, Nebbiolo, Sangiovese, Syrah, Pinot and Tempranillo. Both young and post-20 years. Cab based or influenced wines are usually easiest to distinguish from the others. They age quite differently. Syrah, depending on where it’s from, can seem somewhat like a Tempranillo, depending on where that is from, but the oak usually helps distinguish. Pinot really confuses some people, Nebbiolo even more, but the most difficult to distinguish is Sangiovese and Tempranillo when they’re 20 years or older.
Recently drank a 98 Heredia Riserva Tondonia, and my comment was that it out Burgandy’s Burgandy. Had a 2002 Jadot Charmes Chambertin this weekend. Give me the Heredia any day. Also, drank a Heredia 97 rose this weekend. Try that for something really good and interesting in the rose family…
N,
I have been fortunate enough to attend off-lines and tastings where they were poured. I’d guess I’ve had 10-20 pre-1990 Tempranillo based-wines, I don’t think any older than me (1967). Admittedly, not tremendous experience. I’d love to give you a long list, but I don’t buy them because I don’t understand them. And sadly, I have trouble remembering the names of wines I love, much less those I don’t.
Please understand that I am not knocking Tempranillo, Rioja, the wines of Spain, or anything like that. I’m just saying that 1) they don’t remind me of Pinot, and 2) my palate doesn’t appreciate them. If there is a defect, it isn’t with the variety, it is with me.
N, more importantly, would you disagree with my belief that Rioja and Burgundy are rather different? That was my real point.
Greg, I only brought up Pinot, because the OP mentioned Rioja as a burg alternative. By the way, I appreciate your perspective on the differences between older wine varieties. You’ve clearly done more research on it than me. I recently tried two dead (to me) 1928 BDX, while some others opined on the strengths and weaknesses of each. I couldn’t tell the difference, because they were both sweet and brown liquids, with nothing left to give (again, to me). It’s probably my palate and my defect. But man, these Londoners like their wine old!!!
Cheers, all. Enjoy your Rioja, and let’s be glad we don’t have the same tastes.
Brady - nothing wrong w either you or with the wines. Just different strokes. My wife doesn’t like Tondonia at all, much as she likes the owner.
And yeah, some people are necrophiliacs. With a 1928 I’m really skeptical that there was anything to discuss, but then again, having had a few living wines from that era, maybe?
Still, in most cases it’s more of a curiosity than something I’d want to have every night - after forty years, it’s time to start enjoying and stop worrying that a wine will become better.
'81s 
Yes, of course they are different. I didn’t imply that they were, nor do I believe the original poster meant that they were exactly the same. Old Rioja being thought of as a good alternative does not necessarily mean it is the same as Burgundy.
Personally, the telltale sign for me are the balsamico notes older Riojas tend to develop and that the cherry is wild cherry in particular (the French refer to it as “cerise sauvage” - which has a more sour lilt to it). That and and, often, what many refer to as “dill”. That said, admittedly, of all the times I have had aged Rioja, the only one I have been served blind was a 1970 Bodegas Marqués de Murrieta Ygay Etiqueta Blanca. Some guessed it to be Burgundy, some guessed it to be Rhone, but I was able to tell it was aged Rioja - the reason being, almost surely, that I have more experience with older Riojas than the others present at that occasion
Two of my friends who have pretty much the same experience as I with those wines weren’t there. Had they been, I’m quite sure they would have been able to identify it as Rioja as well.
There are similarities, definitely yes, but they are not the same.
As regards drinking Bdx, say, 70-80 years old, the best experiences I have had were when I was at Bdx and the wines came straight from the producers’ cellars. Even then, not all have been gems. There have been some that were already gone. In Manila, I’ve had, for example, the '34 Lafite and it was as dead as a doornail.
Best,
N
Yes, of course they are different. I didn’t imply that they were the same, nor do I believe the original poster meant that they were exactly the same. Old Rioja being thought of as a good alternative does not necessarily mean it is the same as Burgundy.
Personally, the telltale sign for me are the balsamico notes older Riojas tend to develop and that the cherry is wild cherry in particular (the French refer to it as “cerise sauvage” - which has a more sour lilt to it). That and and, often, what many refer to as “dill”. That said, admittedly, of all the times I have had aged Rioja, the only one I have been served blind was a 1970 Bodegas Marqués de Murrieta Ygay Etiqueta Blanca. Some guessed it to be Burgundy, some guessed it to be Rhone, but I was able to tell it was aged Rioja - the reason being, almost surely, that I have more experience with older Riojas than the others present at that occasion.
Two of my friends who have pretty much the same amount of experience as I with older Rioja weren’t there. Had they been, I’m quite sure they would have been able to identify the wine as a tinto Riojano as well.
There are similarities, definitely yes, but they are not the same.
As regards drinking Bdx, say, 70-80 years old, the best experiences I have had were when I was at Bdx and the wines came straight from the producers’ cellars. Even then, not all have been gems. There have been some that were already gone. Here in Manila, I’ve had, for example, the '34 Lafite and it was deader than the proverbial doornail.
Best,
N
So, you’re not twenty years old then? ![[oops.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/1/1f129ddad071ffe5db6c99817c3cab666035a70a.gif "oops"){kind=small}
I suppose the 2010 Artadi ‘Vinas de Gain’ [Rioja] is not really aged Rioja, given that it’s only 14 years from harvest, and in the context of the DOC, multi decade examples are not unusual. But this Artadi is interesting, and Luis’s long ago comment still rings true. Additionally, Otto had some comments on the 2005, which are appropos to the 2010 as well. For my tastes, this isn’t Burgundian at all, but that should be caveated with two observations: 1. I drink little Burgundy and 2. I’m not sure Artadi’s vision is particularly Riojanes, so even with (more) age, it would end up tasting different. For those who don’t follow the region, Artadi is one of the leaders in the revolt against the prevailing system (crianza, reserva, etc.) and makes their wine unsconstrained by those bounds, but forsaking the benefit of the regulador tags. Anyways, for outsiders, perhaps the way to think of this full bodied (14.5% abv) garnet tempranillo is that it’s their village level Laguardia. For my tastes it shows red berry, licorice on day 1, with more structure and tannin developing on the second night. I liked the 2001 much more, and am not upsed I have NOT reloaded on recent vintages, despite the published regard for 2015 and 2016. It feels like it would have been better younger, even if the burly edges would not have rounded out. I’d give this an A- if one was a omnivorous oenophile, but a traditional Rioja enthusiast might notch it down a step.