Impressions: St Innocent vs Burgundy

WINE TALK
1

I needed a bit of a break from all the crap goings on here at GM in the Motor City, so I organized a little wine tasting just for myself last weekend.

It started off as 1999: St Innocent vs. Burgundy. I chose a Shea and a Dom de la Vougeraie Nuits St. Georges. At first taste, and even repeated tastes, the St Innocent was woody, green, and mean. Oh no, this seems to have been the trend for some admitedly off vintages of SI consumed as of late (1996 and 1997), is this why SI seems to be a love/hate sort of wine?

On the other hand, the NSG was beautifully balanced, full with sweet fruit. Hmmm, maybe an off bottle for the SI, so out came a 2003 SI Temperance Hill. Much better, fuller, more ripe fruit, and actually, an enjoyable finish. So back down to the basement for another contestant, and up comes a 1999 Rodet Cave Prive Clos Vougeot. This one, darker than the NSG, a bit meatier, and also wonderfully balanced, if a bit short on the finish.

Final tally at the end of day 1: Burgs 2, SI 1.

Next day - plenty of wine left from Day 1. First up 1999 SI Shea. Wow Nellie! Gorgeous nose, wonderful dense PN, great ripe finish… no greeness, wood perfectly integrated. What happened here??? Clearly this wine is meant for MUCH longer term aging (at least 5+ years). This was the big surprise. Others: the 2003 SI mostly unchanged from day 1, and still holding well. The 1999 NSG a bit of oranging and not as fresh as day 1, the Clos Vougeot a bit more open and holding well.

Burgs 2, SI 2.

Day 3 - Still some wine left (remember: 4 bottles for one person). In brief, both SI’s still holding strong (the Temperance Hill much better than Parker’s 86 score), the NSG in decline, and the Clos Vougeot just starting to turn down.

SI 2, Burgs ?

So what did I learn? First of all, I still love Bourgogne. In more of a realistic consumption pattern, I would have finished off the NSG night 1 and been completely satisfied. Really, any 1999 Grand Cru should probably still be held a bit longer, and not be kept open, ungassed, and part empty for 48 hours. Finally, I should have consulted the St Innocent website to see that Mark Vlossak advises HOLD 2-5 for the 1999 Shea (doh!). SI’s cellaring advise doesn’t yet extend to 2003, so clearly I was foolish to open up something so young, but on the other hand, both the 2001 & 2002 Temp Hills show up on the chart as ready to drink, so maybe the 2003 is getting close (I would say Now +2).

Since my buying of St Innocent started in earnest with the 1999 vintage, I figure that I’ll drink up more of my Village level Bougognes 1999-2002, and maybe premier crus, before attacking any more SI’s… Except maybe for more scientific experiments… Your experience may vary…
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2

I like Burgundy more than any OR or Cali pinots, but of the OR pinots, St. Innocent is a favorite.

Burgundy Wine Co in NYC had some older bottles for sale that they were pouring, I thought they were real tasty.

Cool comparison!

3

Very interesting test!

For what it’s worth (and you’re probably aware of this), '03 in OR was pretty much like everywhere else on the planet: very hot, with many wines showing a lot of uncharacteristic ripeness. I think there’s general agreement that most 2003 OR pinots are at or near the top of their aging curve, while the 2002s are still worth holding onto. If SI is suggesting their '01s and '02s are coming into season, it certainly seems like the '03 should be in their prime, and your experience seems to confirm that. Interesting and encouraging that the '99 Shea is holding up so well.

We haven’t tried a head to head Burg vs Oregon tasting, but if I did, I might be tempted to try wines from John Thomas, Scott Paul, or Domaine Drouhin as being most Burgundian in style of the pinots I’ve tried. Are you familiar with any of them?

4

Great stuff. Thanks for the thoughts and following the brief evolution. I have a 99 SI Brickhouse on deck, maybe I’ll try the same thing.

Glad to hear the 03 was showing well. Most of my 03 Oregons have been less than pleasing to me lately.

Jason

5

I’ve had a few older St. Innocent’s and they were all bruisers that needed more time. Tasted two 96’s that drank like 04’s.

I wonder how these drank back in the day. I like the few 06’s I’ve had but always wondered how ther compared to the 96’s on release.

6

Can’t tell you, but I did have a '96 SI Brickhouse in the past year that I thought was dried out. I have a note on a Freedom Hill consumed back in 2003 that was much better and still in need of some time. 5+ years later, I am thinking that the clock is probably ticking on this one.

7

Very interesting. I used to be big on SI, White Rose esp. Hope this translates well over well in text, what were your thoughts/assumptions coming into the tasting…if there were any in regards to Burg v SI?

8

My tastes in PN have changed over the past 10 years since I started buying SI. I was probably a Cab lover who loved the density and tannic structure of SI wines, and by comparison, thought that most Burgundies were weak. Since then, I have changed to become more of a Burgundy fan, I love the sweetness of fruit, complexity, transparency, and easy drinkability of a good Burgundy.

In the past couple of years, I have dropped buying SI (prices creeping up a bit, transition of favorite vineyards), and have moved to buying more Burgundian new world PN’s (lately Rivers Marie, Windy Oaks, Rhys, Calera, McHenry). To further help me to refine my wine buying, I will often open a new world bottle and compare it to a similarly priced Burgundy. I generally have no preconceptions, however, more often than not, I enjoy the Burgundies more. I am probably in the minority who believe that Burgundy offers great value in Pinot Noir.

But I still have around 4 cases of misc SI from 1999 on, and while I am not buying more, they are still very good wines. My day 1 impression of the 2003 Temperance was bang on my expectation. I have really enjoyed the 2003 SIs. I think that the hot weather ripened the grapes and produced more sweet fruit to counter the usually stern style of their wines (think: ripe Californian). The 1999 was a big disappointment. However on day 2, I was very surprised to see the transformation, the 1999 had turned around incredibly.

I think that based on my recent experience, I will hold on to my remaining SI 1999’s for at least 2 more years before cracking another, and will choose another new world producer for my next showdown!!

9

Thanks for the detailed reply Errol. Sounds like a great way to find out what you really like while calibrating your current interests v. past interests. I really like that idea. Thanks for posting it.

10

Thanks for the thoughts. I have found that more recent SI wines have been much more friendly in their youth. I think it has been a nice progression. Maybe less extraction too. But still seem to been in the less fruit driven vein especially when compared to things like Rivers Marie.

It is always interesting to look at what you bought 10 years prior. My favorite thing is when I pull out a bottle that I didn’t bother to drink because I didn’t like it … only to find it has blossomed into a wonderful wine. Or better yet, those cheap everyday drinkers that ended up lost in the cellar and are still alive.

Count me in that minority … we may be a minority but at least we are correct [drinkers.gif]

Many Cali pinot lovers and even a few wine-makers have helped spread this myth.

Jason

11

when you say great value, do you mean great value relative to the price?
For Example, An AMAZING $50 Burgundy that beats out the majority of CA pinot at the same price point

or. there are tasty $20 burgundies that are a great value?

I have certainly found the former to be true but I have a hard time wading through all the $20 Burgundy to find the good ones.

12

Many $15-$35 Burgundies that in today’s world are an incredible value. But Burgundies in this range may not suit you. Take someone like FM3 … he will probably not find much in that range. But can you find much in Cali at that range? I can’t … and I have tried. Oregon it is easy as pie.

But I would not bother “wading” through Burgundy … or any region for that matter. Find a retailer or palate you trust and name your price.

Here is a recent sub $25

2006 Jean-Marc Millot Côte de Nuits Villages Clos des Faulques - France, Burgundy, Côte de Nuits, Côte de Nuits Villages (3/27/2009)
This wine gave nothing up early on. Big red fruit but very tannic and un-evolved. Into the decanter. After a few hours the aromatics woke and and really drew me in. But this wine need some time. 3 hours in the decanter just began to do the trick. This is a tremendous wine for $25. A farily easy drinking pinot, with room to develop. Tasty. Wait 3-7 years. (90 pts.)

Happy hunting.

J

13

I said that? I know I was thinking it but didn’t know I said it. :wink: Either way, the values are out there. There are myths going round about both camps, some may be true. But, it really comes down to whatever the taster wants. As always, don’t believe the hype, just taste and decide.

14

Not sure if I was clear here … but the myth would be that Burgundy is a minefield and expensive.

J

15

Yes.

I am out on a limb a bit to state that my opinion is that most $50 Burgs would beat most $50 new world PN’s, but i definitely think that a well chosen $50 Burg would beat all but a small handful of virtually unobtainable small PN producers at the same (mailing list) price point.

Yup, agree, much harder to find in that category, especially for me here in Michigan. The Burg selection locally is terrible, so I have sourced most of my buying from PC, Woodland Hills, North Berkley, wherever. But when I add shipping, the cheapo bottles are not such good deals, so I don’t buy Burgs under $20 to ship. Accordingly the only $20 Burgs I taste that are locally available are the generics from Bichot, Latour, Jadot, and others that most of the time are crap and not as good as $15 mass market PN’s that you can get in the grocery store. Occasionally I am at a tasting where they will have a good ~$20 Burg, and I will buy 6-12 bottles. My last score was a while ago, a 2002 Bichot Mercury Champs Martin that is superb drinking now. I have had recent vintages, it is still an excellent bottle, but unfortunately is now priced closer to $35.

From what I understand, the good Burg generics are from the small domaines that have some land on the ‘wrong side of the road’ and therefore can only be bottled “Bourgogne”. I can’t say that I have ever seen good examples for sale in Michigan.

16

Another important thing to remember is that Burgundy is made on a much smaller scale. Sure, the end result is that a consumer can’t taste a wine they only can read about. But, to say value is absent in Burgundy is completely off base. Larger growers and negociants make inexpensive village and generic as well. It’s impractical to compare that quality level of fruit when California doesn’t have a similar quality system in place.