IMPORTANT! Considering a 'big change' at WB, new system, etc - POLL ADDED

[John_Danza]

The thing that makes a forum much more useful than social media for stuff like we discuss here is:

1. Ongoing discussions that can go years are easy to find and add to.
2. Searching for information is easy on a forum, impossible in social media.
3. Jumping straight to the last thing viewed in a topic. To be honest, there are some forums that don’t do this well either.

I’m ultimately fine with anything, as long as those things that make a forum a “forum” and not “social media” are preserved.

[ToddFrench]

The thing that makes a forum much more useful than social media for stuff like we discuss here is:

1. Ongoing discussions that can go years are easy to find and add to.
2. Searching for information is easy on a forum, impossible in social media.
3. Jumping straight to the last thing viewed in a topic. To be honest, there are some forums that don’t do this well either.

I’m ultimately fine with anything, as long as those things that make a forum a “forum” and not “social media” are preserved.

For certain, I have no interest in making this like social media, as I thought I made clear in the original post, but perhaps not. We have to have access to the threads from 2009 just as readily as those from yesterday, the ease of searching them and commenting on discussions from past days or years is what a forum shines in. All of these will preserve that

[R_Frankel]

I’m in the “change is inevitable” camp. Not good or bad. But always.

The key question is: Why change? Or to expand …

• what are the biggest gaps in the current platform?
• what risks do we have using this very ancient software, i.e. that it will die and we will be boned?
• what features do we lose?
• what are new capabilities that would be really awesome?
• what are the new growth opportunities that would come our way?

If we have good answers to all or some of those questions then making a change is a good idea.

I will research this a bit more, but my immediate off the cuff answer is “Take a good hard look at 3 and move if satisfied with the answers”. Why?

• WB needs to keep growing and adapting, or at least be attractive to new audiences. Otherwise we will fade into the sunset.
• The embedded link/site features look really nice.
• Better search tools (and does Discourse have those?) would be pretty nice.
• The new software, in general, looks pretty good. phpBB is stale.
• Open question: does Discourse make postings here happen automatically on social media platforms? This would be a great way to draw in new people and is very ‘normal’ these days. Disclaimer: I f*ck!ng hate social media and never use it and would be ok if the whole thing got shit-canned and we tried a new way of interacting online. But we’re pretty stuck with it.

Counterpoint: If not satisfied that “CHANGE NOW” satisfies our needs, then wait 5 years and research the same question again. New tools will emerge.

[CFu]

Max, that’s precisely why I want to make a design change, at minimum, but if I’m doing that…why not something more? I don’t want people to come on here and ASSUME it’s outdated because the UI is, as the data is absolutely current and on fire daily.

Honestly I’m impartial. The old forum format is comfortable to me and I imagine it will be to many older users who aren’t as interested in the new hot thing. I do also agree with what someone else said about the 3rd option not being as geared to long winded discussions over many pages. There’s a reason social media uses that format - its for giving you a quick fix before you move onto the next thing. The problem is, WB has a lot of content, but not THAT MUCH content.

If I had to choose between the 2, I’d go with option 2 because it’s a similar functionality with a cleaned up look. Option 3 would be cool too, but if I was in your position I’d be concerned about losing some longtime members who just aren’t interested in figuring out a new interface.

For the record, I’m onboard with either of option 2 or 3.

Not sure why you (and others) think option 3 is not geared toward longer discussion. It shows content just like any other forum software does. It’s just cleaner.

You don’t have to click “next page” each time you hit the bottom because there isn’t a “bottom” of a page. You can just keep scrolling and read through 600 posts in a thread or use the scroll bar to skip to a different section.

[William_Segui]

If search is easier/better, I vote for that #brettfavre

[Max_S1]

Not sure why you (and others) think option 3 is not geared toward longer discussion. It shows content just like any other forum software does. It’s just cleaner.

You don’t have to click “next page” each time you hit the bottom because there isn’t a “bottom” of a page. You can just keep scrolling and read through 600 posts in a thread or use the scroll bar to skip to a different section.

So what happens when I’ve read through 600 posts, close the thread, and then open the page back up again? Does it start me where I left off?

I think that’s exactly why it’s not geared towards a longer discussion where breaking it up into smaller pieces makes it easier to follow.

I’ll play with it more when we get back from Napa. I’m not against option 3, I just think you’re going to run into issues with it. I could be completely off base, I’m not the expert here.

[JBrochu]

Max, that’s precisely why I want to make a design change, at minimum, but if I’m doing that…why not something more? I don’t want people to come on here and ASSUME it’s outdated because the UI is, as the data is absolutely current and on fire daily.

Honestly I’m impartial. The old forum format is comfortable to me and I imagine it will be to many older users who aren’t as interested in the new hot thing. I do also agree with what someone else said about the 3rd option not being as geared to long winded discussions over many pages. There’s a reason social media uses that format - its for giving you a quick fix before you move onto the next thing. The problem is, WB has a lot of content, but not THAT MUCH content.

If I had to choose between the 2, I’d go with option 2 because it’s a similar functionality with a cleaned up look. Option 3 would be cool too, but if I was in your position I’d be concerned about losing some longtime members who just aren’t interested in figuring out a new interface.

For the record, I’m onboard with either of option 2 or 3.

Not sure why you (and others) think option 3 is not geared toward longer discussion. It shows content just like any other forum software does. It’s just cleaner.

You don’t have to click “next page” each time you hit the bottom because there isn’t a “bottom” of a page. You can just keep scrolling and read through 600 posts in a thread or use the scroll bar to skip to a different section.

Another great thing about it is that it saves where you are in the convo. Like lets say there are 100 unread posts in a thread that you follow. You click the link and it takes you to the first unread post. Let’s say you read 22 of the 100 unread posts and then leave the thread. It tracks exactly where you left off, and will bring you back to that spot next time you click on the thread.

Page based threads always assume you read the entire page, which is usually set to 50 or 100 posts per page. If you leave the page without reading all the posts, the next time you come back it skips you ahead to the next page, and you miss posts that you didn’t read on the previous page. So you always end up wanting to at least read to the end of a page before exiting a thread. No need to do that in Discourse.

[Chris_Seiber]

As I mentioned above, a forum is DIFFERENT from social media, its setup differently to allow for contributions current, past, future, etc, as you pointed out - social media has a tendency to be focused on ‘now’, quickly going away.

I’m someone who greatly dislikes social media and the way it encourages people to behave, to interact, and to feel about themselves, and I have never had any social media accounts (unless and to the extent you consider this board one). So I’m going to have a heavy bias against WB becoming more of a social media experience, and a significant question mark whether I would stay involved if it does.

The “old fashioned” tech here matches pretty well with the people who participate and the nature of the topic, where we take longer to talk about things in more thoughtful and nuanced ways, and we look back on things even from long ago, rather than a bunch of quick hits, photo and video, acronyms, and emoji reactions.

I know that I don’t speak for all or most WBers, and there will certainly be many who will prefer more of a social media experience, so my vote is merely this one person’s.

I’d say #2, followed by #1.

[JBrochu]

So what happens when I’ve read through 600 posts, close the thread, and then open the page back up again? Does it start me where I left off?

It tracks where you were to the exact post, and brings you right back to it next time you click the thread. See my last post just above this one for why it’s way better than page based threads.

[Chris_Seiber]

Another great thing about it is that it saves where you are in the convo. Like lets say there are 100 unread posts in a thread that you follow. You click the link and it takes you to the first unread post. Let’s say you read 22 of the 100 unread posts and then leave the thread. It tracks exactly where you left off, and will bring you back to that spot next time you click on the thread.

Page based threads always assume you read the entire page, which is usually set to 50 or 100 posts per page. If you leave the page without reading all the posts, the next time you come back it skips you ahead to the next page, and you miss posts that you didn’t read on the previous page. So you always end up wanting to at least read to the end of a page before exiting a thread. No need to do that in Discourse.

Granted, it’s not automatic, and it would be better if it were. But WB does have a “First Unread Post” link in each thread (righthand side, just above the horizontal burgundy colored bar at the top of the thread or page) which jumps you to there.

That would be a good small feature change in our current format, to have that happen automatically when you click on the thread topic.

[ToddFrench]

As I mentioned above, a forum is DIFFERENT from social media, its setup differently to allow for contributions current, past, future, etc, as you pointed out - social media has a tendency to be focused on ‘now’, quickly going away.

I’m someone who greatly dislikes social media and the way it encourages people to behave, to interact, and to feel about themselves, and I have never had any social media accounts (unless and to the extent you consider this board one). So I’m going to have a heavy bias against WB becoming more of a social media experience, and a significant question mark whether I would stay involved if it does.

The “old fashioned” tech here matches pretty well with the people who participate and the nature of the topic, where we take longer to talk about things in more thoughtful and nuanced ways, and we look back on things even from long ago, rather than a bunch of quick hits, photo and video, acronyms, and emoji reactions.

I know that I don’t speak for all or most WBers, and there will certainly be many who will prefer more of a social media experience, so my vote is merely this one person’s.

I’d say #2, followed by #1.

None of these options presented above is a social media experience, each of them is an adaptation of the forum as we have it now, I removed reference to the term social media in the original post, really want to be sure people understand

[CFu]

Not sure why you (and others) think option 3 is not geared toward longer discussion. It shows content just like any other forum software does. It’s just cleaner.

You don’t have to click “next page” each time you hit the bottom because there isn’t a “bottom” of a page. You can just keep scrolling and read through 600 posts in a thread or use the scroll bar to skip to a different section.

So what happens when I’ve read through 600 posts, close the thread, and then open the page back up again? Does it start me where I left off?

I think that’s exactly why it’s not geared towards a longer discussion where breaking it up into smaller pieces makes it easier to follow.

I’ll play with it more when we get back from Napa. I’m not against option 3, I just think you’re going to run into issues with it. I could be completely off base, I’m not the expert here.

It saves exactly where you left off, i just tested it right now. I got to comment 6 of 65. Closed the page. Went back to the thread. Instantly dropped me onto page 7 of 65.

The current forum software does not.

So based on your complaint we should transition to #3 cause #1 does not do what you want currently

[JBrochu]

Another great thing about it is that it saves where you are in the convo. Like lets say there are 100 unread posts in a thread that you follow. You click the link and it takes you to the first unread post. Let’s say you read 22 of the 100 unread posts and then leave the thread. It tracks exactly where you left off, and will bring you back to that spot next time you click on the thread.

Page based threads always assume you read the entire page, which is usually set to 50 or 100 posts per page. If you leave the page without reading all the posts, the next time you come back it skips you ahead to the next page, and you miss posts that you didn’t read on the previous page. So you always end up wanting to at least read to the end of a page before exiting a thread. No need to do that in Discourse.

Granted, it’s not automatic, and it would be better if it were. But WB does have a “First Unread Post” link in each thread (righthand side, just above the horizontal burgundy colored bar at the top of the thread or page) which jumps you to there.

That would be a good small feature change in our current format, to have that happen automatically when you click on the thread topic.

I agree that the current WB software brings you back to the next new post AFTER you read all the posts in a thread. But once it loads a page, if you don’t read all the posts that exist on that page and then leave the thread, the software assumes you read them all. The next time it will bring you to the start of the next page, skipping posts that you haven’t read yet on the previous page. Discourse will track the exact last post you read, and bring you back to that. (I hope I’m explaining this right. It’s simple but hard to explain for some reason.)

[CFu]

Another great thing about it is that it saves where you are in the convo. Like lets say there are 100 unread posts in a thread that you follow. You click the link and it takes you to the first unread post. Let’s say you read 22 of the 100 unread posts and then leave the thread. It tracks exactly where you left off, and will bring you back to that spot next time you click on the thread.

Page based threads always assume you read the entire page, which is usually set to 50 or 100 posts per page. If you leave the page without reading all the posts, the next time you come back it skips you ahead to the next page, and you miss posts that you didn’t read on the previous page. So you always end up wanting to at least read to the end of a page before exiting a thread. No need to do that in Discourse.

Granted, it’s not automatic, and it would be better if it were. But WB does have a “First Unread Post” link in each thread (righthand side, just above the horizontal burgundy colored bar at the top of the thread or page) which jumps you to there.

That would be a good small feature change in our current format, to have that happen automatically when you click on the thread topic.

First unread post within the thread just tosses you onto the next page cause it’s loading the page in full. The software doesn’t know what post you left on. Just that you left on that page.

So if you go to a new thread you’ve never viewed. Read halfway to page 1. Shut down the window. Go back to the thread and click the “first unread post”. It’ll send you to page 2.

[John_Morris]

My guess is that the ‘older’ crowd won’t want the change and the younger crowd will

Based on the responses so far, I think you need to require anyone voting to state their age.

[RichardFlack]

When I hear words like “dated” and “modern” I immediately think form over substance. I have no interest in having a new look just for the sake of the look being “new.”

I’m all for change that makes the site better, though. An initial peek at the food forum on discourse above does not look better to me, though I admit that’s very much a first impression. Them touting that they will send me even more emails letting me know every time anything has happened on the site sounds a lot like a bug rather than a feature, but then I have a job and a life so maybe that’s the problem.

Expanded ability to “like”, etc. doesn’t do much for me. I would not get rid of the “thank” button we have now but don’t see a need for some expanded suite of “reactions.” I don’t see that as a big detriment either, but if the only reason to change is to expand that, then we’re fixing what ain’t broke IMO.

The expanded links, OTOH, are a nice feature and it would be good to have that. YouTube links already do that here, for whatever reason, while links to things like Wikipedia or the NYT don’t.

One feature I wouldn’t want to lose, and I can’t tell if options 2 or 3 preserve this, is the ability to see posts chronologically (rather than sorted by some algorithm - until we get to a FB quantity of daily posts, I don’t see a need for that and we know what the FB algorithm has done to the state of discord) and to see them either organized by Forum (Wine Talk, Beer, Travel, Asylum) or combined on one page via the “active topics” button. I’m a big fan of that.

Expanded mobile compatibility/functionality is good, too, as long as it doesn’t come at the expense of desktop functionality.

Also, get off my lawn.

FIFY

[K_N_Haque]

I am a Gen X-er (born in the '70s). I suspect that makes me younger than many here, though also older than the millennials. Personally, I love the nostalgic feel of the site. It makes me feel like it is 2009 again. But change or no, I am WB ride or die.

[RichardFlack]

As I mentioned above, a forum is DIFFERENT from social media, its setup differently to allow for contributions current, past, future, etc, as you pointed out - social media has a tendency to be focused on ‘now’, quickly going away.

This is huge. I would really try hard because I love this place and the community we have here, but I think I would hate it if this became a FB or IG style “newsfeed” site. Whatever we do (IMO) we should preserve this as a BB/Forum.

+1 ( or more).

[Aalok_Patel]

I’m a millennial and am fine with the current format TBH. #1 gets my vote.

[Alex_N]

Here’s an example https://linustechtips.com

I haven’t fully reviewed yet but in that example, I’d entirely ditch the right column unless its a controllable/removable widget by users on a per account basis. It squeezes the main content in to a smaller width column and requires more scrolling, and in mobile all of that garbage is either going to be above or below all of the posts, and neither makes sense for a mobile UI, especially if your ads are at the bottom of a long mobile page.