Seriously, that has been my thought exactly while reading through this thread. While the cellar unit has a much lager cu/ft area to cool, that capability should be built in. I have 3 inexpensive Home Depot purchased wine coolers at my home that have been in service upwards of 8 years. The expensive refrigeration units should be more reliable.
Recently, we built a new wine cellar with a two piece or split system.
What I have been told by a couple of wine cellar experts is that split systems are much better than one piece systems. I have been told that even with respect to one piece systems, the bigger ones by various companies are much better made than the basic systems, like the 1800 series by CellarPro or the basic units by Breezaire (the two of these I had lasted about six years each).
I am approaching 4 years use of a 4000s (small split system) and thus far it has performed without issue. It runs perhaps a bit more than I anticipated during the 5 summer months, but then outside temperatures are seldom below 90.
My HVAC installer, who does a good amount of work with walk-in restaurant coolers thought the unit of acceptable quality.
That said, if it can’t go at least a decade, I’ll be disappointed.
Year 7 on my 1800, nothing to report other than it has worked without a hitch.
As one of the owners of CellarPro cooling units, I thought I’d share a bit about our company’s business mission, which I hope will add value to the discussion.
We first started shipping CellarPro cooling units in 2008, so 8 years is the oldest cooling unit that we’ll have in the market at this point (October 2016).
We created CellarPro because we couldn’t find reliable, innovative cooling units for our Le Cache wine cabinets, and eventually developed a full line of cooling units for custom wine cellars of all sizes. Our goal was to build cooling units that would last 10+ years - using the best components, with advanced features and backed by outstanding customer support. We never designed or built a “standard” series, a “Platinum” series or a “private label” series - instead, everything we build has reflected our best effort and has been branded with our singular CellarPro name.
Since 2008, we’ve included the following features and innovations in all of our products:
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- Expansion valve on every unit - not cap tubes - because we didn’t want our units to be limited by a 25 or 30 degree differential to the ambient environment
- Evaporator coils protected by an Electrofin coating, the best in the industry
- Controllers made in Europe by one of the leading manufacturers of digital controllers
- Rigorous testing of every unit prior to shipment
- Made in the USA
- Tested and certified to UL standards
We have been committed to the continuous improvement of our products since Day 1. For example, when we learned that a common point of failure in cooling units is the hot gas loop, we began coating that component to achieve additional longevity in our products.
Notwithstanding the above, we know that we have more work to do. Unless the unit was installed improperly or the cellar exceeded the design parameters of the cooling unit, it is unacceptable that any unit should fail in the first 5 years, let alone multiple times in a 5-year period.
Our peak failure rate was in 2013, due to a batch of defective components that we received from a key supplier in 2012. Following those failures, we demanded that the manufacturer stop shipping components from the factory that was responsible for the defects, and since that time, our annual failure rate has dropped below 2%. We believe that today’s cooling units are the best that we’ve ever made.
When a unit fails during the warranty period, our goals is to replace it quickly, painlessly and at no cost to the customer. Our support team is trained to help - not hinder - our customers, and when problems arise, our focus is to offer solutions, not roadblocks. A note about our warranty policy - for Model 1800 units, all parts are covered for 5 years; for larger units, parts are covered for 2 years, and the compressor is covered for 5 years. We offer an extended warranty on all units that provides full coverage for 5 years, for customers who would like the certainty of that coverage.
While we can’t guarantee that we won’t have product failures in the future, we can guarantee that we’ll always try to build the best products, stand behind our products, and take care of our customers.
Is it easy to maintain the refrigerator temperature at 60F or do you use a temp controller?
I have a “fooler” circuit I developed (and many Berserkers have obtained from me) that will enable you to get down to 55 degrees. I don’t recommend you go that low as the unit can develop ice under certain conditions.
If you set it for 57-58 and keep the front grill off, it should be fine.
I am currently using the Kenmore without this tweak, set at it’s low setting of 60 and get between 61-62.
I don’t mind the possibility of faster aging since I’m 66.
TTT
Paul, which Kenmore units get down that low? All of them?
I imagine they all are able to cool to 55 degrees by being fooled, but they can freeze up if pushed to do so.
They can operate reliably at around 58-59 degrees if the grill is removed and wicking is provided to drain condensate to a container on the floor. Like I said, mine operates at 61-62 without any circuit involved.
TTT
I keep my cellar at 50 degrees.
I contacted cellarpro folks several months ago (Bryan Adams) to see if they could help me with a redundant split system. They recommended an 8500 for my space, but it seemed that a 6500 would suffice given the load calculations of my space and my previous experience with my current system. I was told that these units cannot support 50 degrees. I also asked some questions about humidity impact for 6500 vs. 8500 for my space and was just informed that they typically have humidity between 50 and 70%. I was expecting to get calculations showing that a larger unit would short-cycle and that my avg. humidity would be higher than the smaller 6500 unit, but that didn’t happen. Finally, I think they need to look at more connected control systems - ideally, one you can monitor from your smartphone - and without any form of subscription/service. My current system has ethernet capability and it was installed in 2009.
Thanks, -mark
Mark, I’ll check in with Bryan, but ithere may have been a miscommunication - our units CAN maintain temps as low as 48F out of the box, and 45F with factory modification - but note that the lower temp will require significantly more BTUH.
Larger units MAY maintain higher RH in a given cellar, but they’d need to be much larger - otherwise, the units will default to their design setting of ~60% RH. The key is the environment where the unit is located - for more info, we have a table that shows what RH our units will maintain in a cellar given the environment: Ambient Humidity Chart | CellarPro.
It is true that our controllers are not internet enabled, except in our largest units - it’s a major source of frustration for us - but the controllers otherwise are so advanced and customized for our systems that we don’t want to lose those features. We constantly are searching for an internet enabled controller but so far we haven’t found one that will do the job. As a workaround, we offer the Lacrosse sensor and gateway: Wine Cellar Hygrometer #34285 | IWA Wine Accessories. This system will monitor the temp and humidity conditiins inside the cellar, upload the data to a website, and sent text and/or email alerts when conditions deviate beyond your alarm conditions.
Why? Are you aging backwards?
I’ve only had my cellar pro 3200vsi for 2.5 years, but it runs between 60-75% of the time depending on the season and we’ve had no problems. Very happy with it.
Hi Maureen-
Rationale for a 50 degree wine cellar:
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It slows, but does not stop, the aging curve. It preserves freshness for a longer period of time. I like that, given my timelines and the price escalation in regions I love.
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Interesting situation: early vintages of Chartogne-Taillet SVDs (2006s, 2007s, 2008s) are repeatedly oxidizing for some of my friends with cellars at 55-60…all wines from the same source/distributor and purchased upon release, but every single bottle from my cellar has been pristine…and magical I might add.
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I suspect cellars with temps closer to 50, rather than 55-65, better manage low free sulfur and other potential microbial “anomalies” of some natural wine…see my avatar. At the very least, the temp will delay problematic issues.
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We have all heard the story about the freshness of the ocean wine, widely attributed to the temp it was stored in at the bottom of the ocean.
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I plan to live to 100.
While I may be crazy, I’m pretty sure @Alan Weinberg, Meadows, and a few others around here are doing the same thing…
The only potential negative…is that my 2010s from Rinaldi, Bartolo Mascarello, …may never mature.
If someone has a suggestion for the best split system that works reliably at 50 degrees, has a coated evaporator coil, stainless steel pan, and a decent control system, I’d like to hear it… 3/4 to 1 1/4 tons. I’m looking for a redundant system. I’m somewhat interested in LRCcoil’s HS-87 on the evaporator side w/SS pan and coated coil, and perhaps stick with another Copland condenser. I not a big fan of my Magic Aire evaporator - the coil was not coated and failed in 2 years, among other things. Impurities in the air in a wine cellar make coated evaporator coils mandatory IMO - watch the smell of the coating though.
Thanks, -mark
- Be aware that I was looking at the 6500 and 8500.
- Those charts do not factor in 50 degrees (which affects humidity greatly), or the BTUh/volume/construction of the room, which also affects humidity as a function of the cycle time of the unit…larger units will generally run for shorter periods of time, which will not lower humidity as much as smaller units which have a longer running time or duty cycle.
- Netatmo is a much better system than Lacrosse, I have them both…and several others to monitor/graph temp/humidity. My current system has a more sophisticated control: for instance, the door open/close on the cellar can turn the unit off, the control system has contacts for my alarm system, ethernet to directly access the control system, etc…My older control system is Carel - it’s generally used for commercial configs…not sure I’d recommend this, but it is something to look into - you will need to spend a bunch of time learning how to program it.
- Relevant email below. It is VERY tricky to have a R134a system like mine run at 50 degrees without freezing the evaporator coil - I have a sensor on my coil to monitor…The superheat/subcooling needs to be just right as well, at least in my system w/TXV, EPR, etc…You might want to do some testing to see if you can get the unit to maintain 50 in a reliable way - and check out how the humidity changes as well.
-mark
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: IWA | Le Cache | CellarPro | WineKeeper <support@swawine.com>
Date: Mon, May 23, 2016 at 12:13 PM
Subject: RE: Thermal Load Calculation from IWA | CellarPro
To: me
Mark,
Our cooling systems do not cool to 50 degrees.
They are designed to maintain 50-70 percent humidity provided your enclosure is properly vapor sealed and the door seal is good.
Best regards,
Bryan
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: IWA | Le Cache | CellarPro | WineKeeper <support@swawine.com>
Date: Mon, May 23, 2016 at 12:06 PM
Subject: RE: Thermal Load Calculation from IWA | CellarPro
To: me
Mark,
I did see it. Thank you for that.
Our units typically cool between 52-62 degrees.
Below is some information from our web site regarding humidity;
Please let me know if this helps.
Bryan
Bryan Adams, IWA Design Center
IWA | CellarPro | Le Cache | WineKeeper
Mark, imwill take those 2010 rinaldis off your hands.
On my 3rd unit in 5 years as well. Yes, the company is responsive to warranty claims, and the LeCache is a beautiful piece. I’m hoping the 3rd time’s a charm - shipping is indeed expensive, and reinstalling the unit is a pain.
Mark, I spoke with Bryan and also with our engineers. Bryan was incorrect when he told you that the lower limit is 50F - in fact, the lower limit on our units is 48F, or 45F with our optional white wine modification. It’s important to remember that our units are designed for refrigeration, not HVAC, which means that our coils won’t frost up, even when maintaining the low temperatures noted.
It is true that a larger unit will have a shorter run-time, so it may yield a higher RH in your cellar vs a smaller unit, but the amount of airflow also is important (meaning that you should set the unit on the high fan speed to maximize RH inside the cellar.) Note, however, that the colder setting that you desire will require a colder coil temperature, which will condense more moisture vs a higher setpoint.
Our failure rate is really low - but for those who desire extra protection, we offer an extended warranty that will pay for the shipping costs if/when the cooling unit dies under warranty. For the vast majority, the extended warranty (like most insurance) is a bad deal, but for some percentage of users, it will pay off in the long run. Our goal is to make the extended warranty unnecessary…