If Pomerol did have a classification....?

WINE TALK
41

I love love VCC but even the 2014 is $175. Ouch. The second label, La Gravette de Certan, turned out quite a winner in 2010. Anyone try the 2014?

42

Just buy the 2011. I preferred it to Pétrus from barrel.

43

Fascinating. Had no idea VCC has such a successful 2011. Neal Martin has a nice note on it. Still $150-$165, so not cheap. Pomerol is Pomerol, I guess. The price of entry is high.

44

The Parker barrel score was also high (94-96), and, to my palate, right on.

I have several cases, so my money is where my mouth is.

45

After the bottle I had this weekend, I went out to find some. Total Wine had it for just over $150 by the six pack. Not cheap, but well priced for what it is.

After William’s comment, I checked my notes from the 2011 En Primers, and also liked the 2011, and also preferred it to Petrus. I get the sense that the 2014 is a more complete, but bear in mind I tasted the bottle rather than the barrel sample.

46

Lots of mentions of 2014. What is your take on it in Pomerol?

47

If Pomerol did have a classification, it would not be the same as an AOC in Burgundy.

From what I understand, the laws there allow the owner of the Chateaux to label any juice from his newly acquired ( but must be adjacent ) vineyards under the name of his own Chateaux.

For example, if Chateaux Petrus bought up all the vineyards next to his plot - which he now owns - he is allowed to include the all juice from the new acquired vineyards as if they are from Chateaux Petrus.

So…what kind of a classification would that be ? [rofl.gif]

I maybe wrong …but [scratch.gif]

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48

Not to let facts get in the way of a good argument, but you are wrong. Pomerol as you note is not classified. In the Left Bank, you can add land to your estate, provided the vines are in the appellation. They do not need to be contiguous.

However, even though for example, Latour can purchase additional vines and sell wine from those grapes as Latour, they do not. That is why they make a second wine, a third wine and declassify other lots, selling them in bulk.

For another example, Mouton could add Clerc Milon and d’Armailhac (Both 5th Growths) to Mouton, vastly increasing the amount of Mouton produced, and they don’t. Leoville Las Cases has a second wine and they make Clos du Marquis from the LLC vineyards, which has its own second wine, which could all be LLC, etc. There are numerous other examples of this at all the top properties.

In Saint Emilion, classified estates cannot purchase additional land without asking the INAO for permission, based on terroir, for those vines to be included in their classified parcels.

49

Have tasted a few 2014s (I wasn’t at Primeurs) and VCC and Conseillante are the only Pomerols I have had. Both extraordinarily good. I like the vintage in general, there’s a real crunch and freshness there.

You should also note as I continue to backfill old vintages of VCC, that the 2014 was around $160, and the 2015/16 are $250.

50

Each classification chooses the rules they want to impose on their constituents. Pomerol could follow the Medoc model or St. Emilion. They will do neither, they like things as they are.

Beausejour Becot was demoted for co-mingling of wines without getting INAO permission.

Plenty of Medoc winemakers are adding to their vineyards the whole time. Montrose recently bought a large parcel from Phelan Segur. Ironically, that particular parcel was part of the 1855 classification, and by buying it, they were getting closer to the original 2nd Growth vineyards.

51

I don´t know what this has to do with my posting above [scratch.gif]

the laws there allow the owner of the Chateaux to label any juice from his newly acquired ( but must be adjacent ) …

no, nothing has to be adjacent (not even in the Medoc), it usually has to be in the same class (or get permission).
In Pomerol a new vineyard has only to be of AOC Pomerol …

Mark is totally right …

1 Like
52

Jeff - thanks for the information.

Gerhard…thanks for posting. I respect your knowledge in burgundy and I am a Burgundy guy. I do not know much about Bordeaux and its classification pileon . My initial posting is just to confirm my under standing that an AOC in Burgundy is different than a classification in Bordeaux ( or Pomerol )…

Happy New Year champagne.gif

53

Absolutely different!
In Burgundy the AOC (incl. cru-classification) depends solely on the terroir, the lieu-dit, an exactly limited plot of land with certain qualities …

In Bordeaux an AOC also defines terroir, but in a much more general way, usually comprising a whole political community (or even several communities). The classification on the other hand is partly historical (1855), partly quite recently (1953/1955) defined by local juries … but always depending on the property of a certain Château, sometimes even crossing over AOCs (e.g. Lafite, Pichon-Lalande).
So selling/purchasing/swapping vineyards is possible (usually with permission of the authorities) …

In Pomerol, where there is no classification at all, everything can be sold/purchased/swapped as long as it remains within the Pomerol-AOC.

54

Merci…Gerhard. Bitterly cold in Montreal, Quebec, Canada…lately. [cheers.gif]

55

Over the past few years, we have started to venture into aged Bordeaux’s, all left bank, and have had all of the good years (and some not-so-good years) back to 1970, from 1st thru 5th growths. Prior to that, our love was new world, big bold cabs.

The other weekend at dinner decided to venture to the right bank and ordered a 1985 Trontanoy, based on the som’s recommendation. I was very much underwhelmed. Great initial nose of leather, herbs and earthiness but quickly turned to bright red fruit, floral and violet type aromas. Flavor profile was slightly too tart and tasted ‘fresh’, more like a young wine than a 30+ yr old. It tasted like it lacked that ‘umph’ that I was expecting. Was not impressed for $625/bottle (big steakhouse restaurant markup).

Reading the posts above, Trontanoy should have been a solid choice of chateau. Obviously the '85 vintage could have been better, but there’s plenty that are worse.

My question: is my tasting experience typical of Pomerol wines? Or should I give it another try?

56

[quote="z_hart"1985 Trontanoy, based on the som’s recommendation. I was very much underwhelmed. Was not impressed for $625/bottle (big steakhouse restaurant markup).

Reading the posts above, Trontanoy should have been a solid choice of chateau. Obviously the '85 vintage could have been better, but there’s plenty that are worse.

My question: is my tasting experience typical of Pomerol wines? Or should I give it another try?[/quote]

1985 was not a successful vintage for any of the Moueix properties. Trotanoy and Petrus, are big letdowns for a vintage of that quality. I’d try another, and you do not need to spend $625!

57

I did a full Trotanoy-tasting a few years ago - 32 wines:
see TROTANOY - TROTANOY -TROTANOY x 32 in GRAZ - WINE TALK - WineBerserkers

Our bottle of 1985 T. was outstanding (93 points for me), but compared to the (excellent) vintage in Pomerol it even could have been slightly better (like other Moueix properties).
The period between 1983 and 1988/89 wasn´t the very best of this producer - however the 1982 was great, the 1989 outstanding.

58

One decent starting place on a classification is Wikipedia’s post on Pomerol, which includes Master of Wine Mary Ewing-Mulligan’s 2001 rankings that divided Pomerol into three categories. One flaw was that she ignored a couple of top ones which made fewer than 1,000 cases, most notably La Violette.

Class One (On a par with the First Growths of the Médoc) Château Pétrus and Château Lafleur.

Class Two (On a par with the Second and Third Growths of the Médoc) Château Trotanoy, Château L’Évangile, Vieux Château Certan, Château L’Église-Clinet, Château Clinet, Château La Fleur-Pétrus, Château Clos l’Église, Château La Conseillante, Château Certan de May, Château Latour à Pomerol, Château Nenin and Château La Fleur-de-Gay.

Class Three (On a par with the Fourth and Fifth Growths of the Médoc) Château Petit-Village, Château Feytit-Clinet, Château Rouget, Château Bon-Pasteur, Château La Croix du Casse, Château Gazin, Château La Grave-à-Pomerol, Château le Gay, Château Hosanna and Château la Croix-de-Gay.

Personally, I would have knocked down her last three in Class Two to Class Three and added La Violette to Class Two. I might have put Hosanna up a notch, but it is so inconsistent.

59

That is not a very differentiated classification (e.g. there is a vast qualitative gap between the likes of Nenin and Fleur de Gay on the one hand and VCC and Eglise-Clinet on the other, yet they are in the same category) and nor is the analogy with the 1855 classification very helpful.

60

In the Medoc, the same rules as you find in Pomerol applies. For example, a First Growth can buy vineyards in the same appellation and add them to their Grand Vin. They do not need permission. However, the trend is to produce less of the Grand Vin these days. Most newly acquired vines go into the second or third wine of a top classified growth.